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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:14 pm

"most of this stuff (running away, scripts, plotting, narration, early deaths, walkthroughs,fortifications and prop scenery etc)"

Indeed.

Walkthroughs can make all the difference between a dodgy 'day 1' fight and a good 'day 1' fight.


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Fox
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Postby Fox » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:35 am

Phil the Grips wrote:Most societies charge so reenactors are not free.


[citation required]

I think most societies are payed some of the time. I'd be interested if we could show that, on average over a season, groups are paid more than 50% of the time.



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Phil the Grips
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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:59 am

Again I think this is a difference in perception between those societies that do "fayres" as their primary events and those that do "reenactments".


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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:23 am

Our group is paid 80% of the time to 100% of the time, most are fee payers, if not then it is because we have a special relationship with a venue that normally pays and we are helping them out.

But as a general policy we do fee payers, the fee is of course not fixed and often subject to negotiation.

Old WCo days, most events were paid for, even if a token amount as we were invariably on show.


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Postby Fox » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:28 am

Phil the Grips wrote:Again I think this is a difference in perception between those societies that do "fayres" as their primary events and those that do "reenactments".


Disagree.

My own experience is that PKoSD don't get paid for our most authentic shows.

Nor do we get paid for the events that are most obviously Pageants.

Occasionally we get paid for some of the shows that are in between.

I think the financial analysis is that the total available funds is fixed by the available audience.

This means you can sometimes set up a show with a small number of re-enactors and interpretors and pay them moderately.

But as the numbers rise the cost per head must drop.
You have two options: (1) hire some specialists and pad out with "free" re-enactors or (2) hire a group who have specialists and a large number of extras they supply simply as part of the package.

Either way, the point is that individual re-enactors are not paid to do an event, it's a hobby.

So going back to the original point:
If event organisers only wanted really authentic re-enactors they could restrict events to be the way they wanted. The fact that generally they don't proves my point.



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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:27 pm

Fox wrote:[Either way, the point is that individual re-enactors are not paid to do an event, it's a hobby.
Individual reenactors getting paid is different from a society getting paid-agreed.

However it is my experience that most societies across reenactment (and there is far more to reenactment than medieval) expect to get paid for their efforts- however the expectation to receive or even work for payment at a society level is far less in the "fayre" sector of the reenactment spectrum.

I would also say thta my points about competititive fighting, early deaths and the like match that sector too. However I could be easily proven wrong- but my experience doesn't show it to be such.


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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:28 pm

Our group is paid, we are not.


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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:38 pm

"My own experience is that PKoSD don't get paid for our most authentic shows."

Do you ask to be paid or do you take events that don't? different emphases for each aspect, some groups will only do fee payers or aim to do most events as fee payers, regardless of authenticity, which I see is a red herring to this, there are many groups out there that offer all kinds of spectacle at all kinds of levels, many get paid.


"The fact that generally they don't proves my point."

Except that you haven't proven the general prevalance one way or the other, none of us have beyond our own group experience.


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Postby the real lord duvet » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:35 pm

the poor knights remain the last bastion in socialist reenactment attempting to prevent the free market economy from effecting this last great middle class hobby........




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Postby Fox » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:18 am

gregory23b wrote:Except that you haven't proven the general prevalance one way or the other, none of us have beyond our own group experience.


There is plenty of total wang out there still getting gigs. Someone is letting them do events. They are not a majority, but they are a measurable minority.

The fact that I critise some people for being authenti snobs is point of principle; mostly because it looks like Austrailia attacking apartheid in the '80s.

Don't think that I am not as frustrated as other people by groups who ruining the effort we make to be better. I temper that frustration by constantly noticing how wrong we are, and how much further I think we have to go.

As someone who actually organises events and battles, all be it a newbie in that field, I'm [again] starting to see re-enactment from a different perspective. I've tried to communicate some of that in this thread.

gregory23b wrote:Do you ask to be paid

No. We make a choice to contribute what we want to an event, rather than being bullied into stuff by an organiser.
I've said it before, but it bares repeating, re-enactment is not a good way to earn money, so it makes sense to do what you enjoy rather than look at it as a fund raising exercise.
That doesn't mean we don't work hard, or enjoy doing a good job.

As TRLD it's a socialist middle class experiment.
Last edited by Fox on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby gregory23b » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:50 am

"I've said it before, but it bares repeating, re-enactment is not a good way to earn money,"


Do you mean as individual reenactors earning what are in effect wages, or do you mean groups?

Also do you mean earning as an aim to make money or as an aim to be able to provide group shows to 'commercial' people so that it does not impact on the individuals, ie many groups are clubs and have to be non-profit making, ours is, none of us make money as individuals.

As far as I see it, when individuals start charging for 'reenactment' services they are entering a different realm, driven by different goals, a collective goal of achieving some payment to offset wear and tear whilst providing clients with a good show is a different expectation and very much in line with a cooperative mind set, something I am very much in favour of.

I do think the authenticity argument is a red herring, because not all clients want or expect it, it can be a good sales pitch or it can be irrelevant. The issue of groups being paid or not is not linked to the accuracy or otherwise of their kit, otherwise few groups would be getting a look in. Payment to groups is based on:

inclination of client to want to pay, based on:

available funds or the apparent cost of the group.


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Postby Fox » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:08 am

What I mean is that doing paying shows to fund the running costs of the group is not very efficient.

Our group raises our running costs by keeping those costs to a minimum and raising the rest from group membership.

This means we are free to do the shows we want, rather than ones which provide an income.

Money that we do earn, as a group, is reinvested in group kit; but importantly that income is not required for the running of the group, so we have no minimum earnings requirement to keep the group alive.

This places more costs back on the individuals in some subtle ways (for instance, I run van to transport kit, rather than the group running a van). But since re-enactment is an inefficient way to earn that money, it doesn't make logical sense to us to do it that way.



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Postby gregory23b » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:41 am

I don't think many groups actually cover the real costs of wear and tear, but it certainly does help. Communal kit gets bought when it might not be possible for an individual.

"This means we are free to do the shows we want, rather than ones which provide an income."

But that is the key point, I don't think groups charge to create group income as such, they are probably not allowed to, they charge to offset wear and tear and invest where possible. Our group does not have set targets of what we 'need' to charge, far from it as fees are variable and often subject to much negotiation, yearly fees will vary accordingly. That does not stop us doing the events we want to do including the odd free one.

You might find that some groups have to turn down events because they are so busy and effective at charging what is reasonable in the context of the event they go to, ie they have more choice because of it, rather than less.


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Postby Chris, yclept John Barber » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:21 pm

gregory23b wrote:EH Festival of History is anything but entertaining...


I never saw that in their advertising! :D


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Postby Chris, yclept John Barber » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:39 pm

gregory23b wrote:"This means we are free to do the shows we want, rather than ones which provide an income."

You might find that some groups have to turn down events because they are so busy and effective at charging what is reasonable in the context of the event they go to, ie they have more choice because of it, rather than less.


I agree - our group has stipulated that there are places we don't want to go back to, organisers we won't work with again, and so on. Still, by charging what commercial event organisers see as reasonable fees, we are able to subsidise a lot of goodies for our membership - all travel expenses and food at paying events, weekly practice venue, communal kit, subsidised food at non-paying ('fun') weekends, end-of-season parties, annual "awards" ceremony at a (subsidised) nice hotel...

The other point is that we don't just have one show to offer - we can often tell an organiser "Oh, I think that for your event this one of our shows is best..." and we can push them towards an under-represented show. So this year we are doing some C13th "Hollywood foot tourneys", some C15th Living History events, "being picturesque" for a themed wedding, a C15th Murder Mystery, and they are all letting us subsidise our attendances at Fed and EMA bashes.

Admittedly, there is a cost in that we do have a minimum earnings level - we have to do some shows to keep the group running on that basis. But if the jobs fell off for some reason, we'd simply drop down to a default level of having to pay for it ourselves - no events means we don't need to hire vans to take the stuff there, which would cut our costs a lot. We'd start charging 50p a week to attend practices to pay for the hall, and so on. In other words, exactly what groups who don't do paying shows have to do.


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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:05 pm

"I never saw that in their advertising! "
Damn,

re write, Is entertaining and educational.

Doh!

ta. :D


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Postby Man from Coventry » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:55 am

We are looking to incorporate some of the idea's mentioned above, particularly in relation to the casualties into this years Blore Event - see Allans thread under event announcements. (Though in fairness we have tried many of the ideas at this event for some years hopefully this year we will have more success in implementing them).

To this end we are calling for volunteers to assist in the co-ordination/command roles.

A chance for those who have contributed to this thread to put their ideas into practice.


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Postby Man from Coventry » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:36 am

We did try the casualty idea, in a very simple form at this years Blore with partial success with the use of the "Smarties of death" green = life, red=death for casualties to respond to gunfire and close range archery fire as the initial lancastrian attack went in.

On the plus side this did result in more casualties than ever before and looked loads better from the publics viewpoint. The difficulty was getting casualties to stay dead for a reasonable period (and not be hoovered up) as the blocks fell back) and be recovered during the lull that followed. Though this did improve on the Sunday, the Oxfords performing excellently in this regard - Good to see the Fed Chairman leading by example. Hopefully as participants realise that they will get recovered during the lull and wont be left there all the day - more people will do it.

One problem was that the Yorkist archers were slow on both days, to respond to the first assault and consequently there was no arrows to take casualties from for the second Lancastrian billblock.


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