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m0rt
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Postby m0rt » Sat May 31, 2008 7:12 pm

On the subject of bends, does anyone have a list of some 'standard' colours to use for them, say a couple of multi-purpose Lancastrian colours/liveries and a couple for Yorkists?

On the subject of different stuff to do in battles, several shows that God's Company did last year involved us being flat shot behind pavises, which I thought was great fun for us being shot at and I think it was good for the crowd. We have also tried to start doing some of the other things that have been suggested on here, such as actually running away between clashes, and going down when hit and being recovered.

I can't speak for the rest of the guys, or for how our commanders thought it went, or how the public saw it, but I quite enjoyed the chance to go down, be wounded, stagger out of the line etc. safe in the knowledge that after the clash someone will come and pick me up/drag me back to the lines, where I can receive 'medical' (magic water) treatment and then fight on.

As an idea for making it easier to know when to run away, perhaps a unit who knows they are going to be defeated could arrange it so their standard falls, and use that as a signal. I imagine on the crowd line shouts of "The standard has fallen, we are lost" etc. would work quote well, as (and I may be wrong) if you were fighting in medieval times, and you saw your banner fall, you might assume that your captain had also fallen, thue causing a breakdown of discipline, several people trying to take command, nows your chance to run away and not be punished by your sergeant and so on. Whist this might be difficult to put together since our banner bearers tend to be non coms, it's worth thinking about.

Finally, I think having 'scenery' on the battlefield helps greatly to make the show both more interesting for the public, different for us and possibly more historically correct. Even simple stuff like defensive stakes of the archers, or gun pallisades would be good, and assaulting the Woodville defended pallisade at Loseley last year was a great laugh.

Wow, long post. Just my thoughts (and only mine) on the subject.

Comments?

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Postby StaffordCleggy » Sat May 31, 2008 8:45 pm

Yorkist is easy - Murray & Blue.

Lancastrian - Prince of Wales' colours were red & black, conveniently for some!


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Postby Ghost » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:47 pm

Field Fortifications - Allan Harley has a potential source for these and is looking to introduce these with the aim of staging Northampton and possibly Castillion and, a bit further back in time, Orleans

Effective Archery - Firepower displays have been used for several years at Fed and other events to shown bill unit advancing against archers and guns but this in main has been used as a "filler" display - we introduced it as part of the main display at Lincoln and attempted it at Rufford - it is intended to use it as ;part of the main battles at Windsor, Bosworth and Blore this year - the main problem is not everyone has right face protection or indeed likes the idea of being shot at - same with horses not everyone's ideas of fun is being stuck in a defensive shiltron with a bloody huge horse snorting at you - one danger of flat shooting arrows is knowing when to stop as once bill lines are engaged then the individuals concerned have to be looking up and willl not be wary of arrows

English Livery - not really useful for WOR battles as a second livery - the desire to see everyone with english livery be it tabard style, livery coats or simply a red cross on jack gives the ability to put on a display with a large number of people in same "colours" - it would be impressive especially if we did Edwards invasion of france in 1475 - we did Clivedon last year for eventplan - we had several groups but numbers for each were low (something that might become more common with less cash as other thread elsewhere) - wearing english livery by all enabled us to put out a decent sized block looking the same - the horses on that occasion of course portrayed the french - one thing i've suggested to Allan H and Steve Arnold is if the fed could promote a european event on a regular basis - it's always difficult to get individual groups to do this as getting everyone to take the same week off work is nigh on impossible - if the fed could arrange as an umbrella organisation then the ones and twos of each group who would be available would soon add up to a decent amount - all my french campaigning in the late 90's was done this way with scratch companies made up of members of various groups.

Livery - i don't think anyone would expect anyone to spend cash on making full alternative liveries that's why the sash option was muted as a cheap simple alternative - although as suggested earlier and other way is to perhaps have livery badges fixed simply to your jac - another way is helmet plumes or

generic colours

York

Blue and Murray - Edward IV, Richard III, Clarence - yorkist groups could use their own livery badge on these colours rather than sun in spendour, white boar, black bull etc

Lancastrian

Blue and White - Henry VI, Duke of Somerset

Red and Black - Dukes of Buckingham, Percies (Northumberland), Edward Prince of Wales (Tewkesbury)


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Postby Ghost » Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:49 pm

PS Generic Lancastrian Badges

Henry VI - antelope, swan and osterich feather (also used by Prince of Wales at Tewkesbury)

You can pick up pewter osterich feather badges from a variety of traders as stock items


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Postby Allan Harley » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:08 pm

I echo all the good ideas published here - for events that I organise/help with would people like to know the generic colours for each side plus the colours and badges for the principal commanders?

As people have said, no-one wants to take away from individual groups but bends are cheap and easy and you can just put a different badge on. schizophrenia here we come.

Please if you are interested in these ideas take it to you groups/captains and get them involved. On a separate topic people are worried over events because of rising costs - one way to ensure they go on is to stage events that have something special and enjoyable to all.

Also Further colours
Red - Nevilles - Up to Edgecote for York - Then Lancastrian until Barnet - then Stanley for Bosworth
Red & Black - Talbot
Blue/White generic Lancastrian plus Fauconberg


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Postby Cat » Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:25 pm

Cheers, chaps.


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Postby Man from Coventry » Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:46 am

In respect of generic bends and liverys this was discussed in some depth approx 9 months ago, in the "WOTR allegiances" thread.

The closest there is to a generic lancastrian livery is that of the young Prince of Wales. Red and black, with either a single ostrich feather or a single ostrich feather held in the beak of a fettered swan.

This was used at 2nd St Albans, Towton & poss Blore Heath, Wakefield, Tewkesbury.


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Postby Ghost » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:08 am

Man from Coventry wrote: The closest there is to a generic lancastrian livery is that of the young Prince of Wales. Red and black, with either a single ostrich feather or a single ostrich feather held in the beak of a fettered swan.This was used at 2nd St Albans, Towton & poss Blore Heath, Wakefield, Tewkesbury.


Why Prince of Wales rather than Henry VI as a generic livery ? - I would have thought latter be a better than Edward who only fought at Tewkesbury - Henry VI as King would make a better counterpoint to Yorkist blue and murray Edward IV and Richard III and is viable for every WOTR battle excect Bosworth/Stoke (Tudor)

also not a huge difference from a distance between black/red and blue/murray - both are two dark colours - Henry VI as royal blue and white would make an obvious contrast - that said maybe indivdual groups should decide as both are viable


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Postby Allan Harley » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:57 am

Personally would be happy with the following

Yorkist Blue/Murrey plus Red
Lancs Blue/White plus Red/Black

And households to have a "home and away" strip/bend/livery

Shouldn't be difficult :shock:


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Postby Man from Coventry » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:29 am

Man from Coventry wrote:
The closest there is to a generic lancastrian livery is that of the young Prince of Wales. Red and black, with either a single ostrich feather or a single ostrich feather held in the beak of a fettered swan.This was used at 2nd St Albans, Towton & poss Blore Heath, Wakefield, Tewkesbury.


Why Prince of Wales rather than Henry VI as a generic livery ? - I would have thought latter be a better than Edward who only fought at Tewkesbury - Henry VI as King would make a better counterpoint to Yorkist blue and murray Edward IV and Richard III and is viable for every WOTR battle excect Bosworth/Stoke (Tudor)


A couple of reasons for this;

1.It is documented before 2nd St Albans that such bends were used for all Lancastrian troops and that such badges were distributed before Blore Heath It is effectively the household livery of Margaret of Anjou as the prince was a minor and she effectively controlled his patrimony. There is no corresponding evidence of the kings devices/livery being used.
2. Henry VI did not actually fight at many Wars of the Roses battles (Blore Heath (absent), Ludford (present), Northampton (Present), Wakefield(absent), St Albans II(Captive), Mortimers Cross (absent), Towton (absent - in York), Hexham (absent), Barnet (absent -captive) Tewkesbury (absent - captive),. The Prince of Wales livery could effectively cover all these battles with the exception of Barnet where Neville livery's predominated.


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Postby Man from Coventry » Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:25 pm

Henry VI as royal blue and white would make an obvious contrast

I take it your affection for Blue & White has nothing to do with these being the glorious Beaufort colours Ghost ?

Finally, I think having 'scenery' on the battlefield helps greatly to make the show both more interesting for the public, different for us and possibly more historically correct. Even simple stuff like defensive stakes of the archers, or gun pallisades would be good, and assaulting the Woodville defended pallisade at Loseley last year was a great laugh.


There have been other events where such features are used (Blore -Pallasades and stakes), Rufford & Huntingdon (trees and other soft cover)
I have a bit of a problem with the death to the arrow storm plan. I like that idea of taking hits and dying well, I'm just a bit concerned that I'll be putting my armour on, marching to the field, waiting around for the go and then laying in the grass for the next hour because I got hit in the first 10 seconds.

Or worse, I die half-way through the battle and spend the next half-hour hoping that no-one will step on me! (ok, given my size, they'll probably see that I'm there, but you see my point).



This where a good script comes in, such as at Blore, where there is a deliberate lull after the initial disastrous Lancastrian attack to recover casualties. I admit that it can be a problem getting large tinnies off the field as they are not light.


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Postby Allan Harley » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:33 pm

Blue and white is so slimming

Possibly a crane for tinnies :roll:

All sensible ideas considered to improve what we all do - running away, wounded is an excellent way to introduce new peopel to the field without having to commit to the "heavy" stuff.

Actively looking for new ventures/places for events - may have doosie for 2010 which includes field works, rolling ground, hedgerow and trees


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Postby The Iron Dwarf » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:58 pm

Allan Harley wrote:Possibly a crane for tinnies :roll:

I do have some large electromagnets capable of 1 ton of pull, maybe a couple of these on a small crane fitted to a land rover could remove the scrap metal from the battlefield ;)


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Postby Ghost » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:34 pm

[quote=" I take it your affection for Blue & White has nothing to do with these being the glorious Beaufort colours Ghost ?

actually no - I'm still seeing a counsellor to get over not wearing the green and brown of his Lordship Thomas Stanley having spent the first decade and a half of my re-enactment career as a loyal servant of that most much maligned of WOTR personalities (Only Dickon himself gets more mud slung at him)

Do have a secret stash of gold eagles tallons that no one knows about hidden at bottom of sock draw but sshh thats secret

Only suggested blue and white as it is a contrast to blue and murray but as Allan says blue and murray plus warwick red for yorkist and blue/white and red/black would be sensible combinations


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Postby Allan Harley » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:24 am

So for any enterprising trader/costume maker with off cuts - here is your chance

Plain sash £8-£10? Badged £15?

Any takers


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Postby Nigel » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:38 am

More like £20 with an applique badge matey

we were planning on having some at tewks


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Postby Jackie Phillips » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:11 pm

Certainly happy to do plain ones for that price, can do most colours reasonably quickly.

I may even be able to organise machine embroidered badges too, but would need a little longer to arrange.

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Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:01 pm

We've experimented with machine embroidered badges and I think there were problems with them pulling when hit by swords. Applied badges with a little embroided detail are probably more appropriate for the field.

Ghost wrote:

Do we introduce the thorny topic of wearing livery colours appropriate to the principle commanders at the actual battle rather than the group you may be in so as to provide the crowd with easier recognition of, using a sporting analogy "teams" ?


Was this done? I know that for small battles, the great lords handed out their colours to everyone, but AFAIK things like Tewkesbury, each great lord had his men in his own colours and (possible) issued a bend or badge to wear over them, showing the overall commander. Am I wrong in this?


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Postby Fox » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:26 pm

There is evidence for house coloured garments, a "livery", and also for simpler markings such as bends, badges, sashes, whatever you want to call them.

I'm not sure there is any clear evidence to suggest that these types of markings were universal, or how many men wore them, either in a given group or overall; in other words, I don't think we know.

I think the evidence would also suggest that most combatants did not were a "livery", but again it's not clear evidence.

What we do know is that formal uniform, in the way we think of it, doesn't exist until at least the 18thC.
Last edited by Fox on Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:22 pm

Given that some listed examples of household livery included spoons and plates I'd guess that not all of it was to do with clothing, more like the goverment issue stamped stuff you find handed out to the Forces nowadays. On the other hand as the nobility often marked their political power and prestige upon the number of heavies they could wander about with, I have wondered how easily they would give up the honour and potential look at me status in order to wear someone else's livery. Then again would they gain extra wack and welly for decking their men out in the royal colours and being seen as their King's main man? This is hyjacking my own thread anyway.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:25 pm

But while I am wondering, would it in anyhow affect those magmates whose livery stayed the same while their alleigence didn't. Warwick's livery was still red if he was fighting for York or for Lancaster, essentially because he was fighting for himself.


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Postby Allan Harley » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:50 pm

Major issue would be for a large scale engagement (and I am aware there weren't that many) the problem is that you wouldn't know most of the peopel on your own side even possibly if they were retained by your Lord.

Colours (or some sort of field sign) avoids the friendly hack scenario -

That doesn't mean they are universal but does help even in the larger reenactments when forming up troops and having others come round the flank/rear


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:15 pm

Was that not wht they are recorded shouting "A Warwick! A Clarence!", "St George and A Talbot!", " For God, St. Michael and St.George" and so on? If this happened I think it would create a bit of attention and make things more exciting for those watching. (Getting back to the point of my original posting.)


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Postby Fox » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:22 pm

Presumably there were a lot of banners, so that blocks of men could be identified (or in the case of Barnet, misidentified :wink: ).



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Postby Ghost » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:03 pm

What I was trying to suggest is that we should avoid using liveries at actual WOTR battle re-enactments of persons that were not there eg Gloucester, Tudor, Somerset, Oxford, Hastings etc liveries at Blore - and yes troops with no livery would be more "authentic" than those in the incorrect one - but the use of generic sashes etc would have benefits in assisting the public in identifying whos on who side and the same for those on the field

I agree with others about being glad to see so many positive comments on this thread and the clear desire to improve battle displays for public and participants a like. As far as WOTR re-enactment is concerned over the next few years we have numeroust 550th anniversaries comming up starting next year at Blore and this should be seen as an oppurtunity for us all to put what we have been talking about into action, raise our public profile and work together to put on a series of accurate portrayal of battle re-enactments that will be remembered for years to come


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Postby Fox » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:30 am

Ghost wrote:I agree with others about being glad to see so many positive comments on this thread and the clear desire to improve battle displays for public and participants a like. As far as WOTR re-enactment is concerned over the next few years we have numeroust 550th anniversaries comming up starting next year at Blore and this should be seen as an oppurtunity for us all to put what we have been talking about into action, raise our public profile and work together to put on a series of accurate portrayal of battle re-enactments that will be remembered for years to come


Oh Bravo!

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Postby RottenCad » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:53 pm

I must admit that from a purely self-centred POV, I have to agree with m'learned friend Zauberdachs; the best battle I've had was Bannockburn in 2005, due to the run-through in the morning. This is followed by Caldicott 07, and Berkeley 06.

Caldicott was well organised, and well understood by all. Berkeley likewise, with the additional factor of having two scraps per day. I think Bannockburn is ideally suited to that format, by the way, as the 1314 stage-show had two significant elements on two days, which can easily be recreated by a morning (1st day) and afternoon (2nd day) skirmish.

May I therefore put in a plea to battle organisers for a dress rehearsal as part of the commanders' meetings ? It really, REALLY works!

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Postby Fox » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:19 pm

RottenCad wrote:May I therefore put in a plea to battle organisers for a dress rehearsal as part of the commanders' meetings ? It really, REALLY works!


We do it for all mine, with the exception of Caldicot. There a scripts and diagrams as well.

In case of Caldicot I see no point in rehearsing the chasing of cats, best just wave a feather on string in front of them and let them chase it until they're bored, then hope to convince the public there is a story to it. It worked last year.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:50 pm

Right so we all know what to do....now we've just got to go out and do it. :D


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Postby Ghost » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:24 pm

Best one for me is still 500th anniversary of the Battle of Stoke in 1987 but thats probably nostalgia from an old git and also the fact i still get cold shivers when, having started advancing up the hill toward the German pike block, we were advised that the ground charge markers has been trampled and were now unidentifiable - mines - wot - mines :shock:


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