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Wallace & co. - what really happened?

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:02 pm
by Stephen Dobson / Rab
Okay folks, I'm starting to get rather frustrated bouncing about the interweb, so I'm turning to you nice people for help.

It all started with trying to get my local gaming group away from sci-fi and fantasy and do some historical wargaming. I fancy doing late C13th and early C14th, you know, Eddy 1's little Celtic holidays. Anyway, I'm trying to get some decent info on equipment for the various participants, along with any recommended reading/websites listing combatants etc. I also would like to know what the deal was with plaid at the time - was it worn, if so what did it look like (I do already realise that Mel Gibson did not make an accurate documentary :roll: Did it look anything like the Highlanders shown here: http://www.ebobminiatures.com/products/rebellion.htm

So, I throw myself on your collective mercies.

Cheers,
Rab

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:03 pm
by Alan_F
Stephen, try here: http://www.gaddgedlar.com

In short, no they wouldn't have worn tartan plaids, that comes a long time after the period, in dress the Scots army would have been hard to distinguish from the Englisn, although there were those amongst the Scots sucha s Highlanders who would have been in the dress of the Gallowglass, a Scottish professional warrior caste (or the nearest thing to it!), but their dress would have been long shirt (about down to the shins), the large overtunic and they would be accompanied by men such as kern (arrow/throwing spear type troops) and spearmen.

Hope that helps. 8)

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:29 pm
by Phil the Grips
Rabocles,

Pretty much any figure here will be accurate for what you want as basic soldiers and knights of both sides-
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collecti ... /index.asp
The later archer figures they do are about right too for bowmen.
Even been known to use them to inspire a reenactment kit or two in the past! :)

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:15 pm
by Stephen Dobson / Rab
Cheers, both of you - that's pretty much exactly what I was after on the miniatures side of things 8)

However, I'm still floundering through pages of Google where all the sites take Braveheart as their primary source whenever I look for Rolls of knights etc who participated and on which side in various battles - any suggestions?

I'd like as historically accurate a game as possible if I'm going to do historical stuff (I've got to educate them properly, you see!) - despite my recurring plan for a CoDDS unit, complete with foot-knight proudly displaying his salmon arms :wink:

edit: Alan - nice site, some really useful info on there. I particularly like the essays and will be reading them once I've finished writing my Year 10 reports (bloody parents, wanting to know how their kids are getting on :evil: :roll: )

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:18 pm
by zauberdachs
Stephen Dobson / Rab wrote:Cheers, both of you - that's pretty much exactly what I was after on the miniatures side of things 8)

However, I'm still floundering through pages of Google where all the sites take Braveheart as their primary source whenever I look for Rolls of knights etc who participated and on which side in various battles - any suggestions?

I'd like as historically accurate a game as possible if I'm going to do historical stuff (I've got to educate them properly, you see!) - despite my recurring plan for a CoDDS unit, complete with foot-knight proudly displaying his salmon arms :wink:


PM me your address as I have a pile of books on the subject I've been trying to give away... ;)

Jenny says "Hi" as well.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:27 pm
by David F
If you're looking for heraldry, try the series of books by Pete Armstrong;-
Stirlng Bridge and Falkirk ISBN 1 902667 00 X, The siege of Caerlaverock Castle ISBN 1 902667 01 8, The Battle of Bannockburn ISBN 1 902667 02 6, Dupplin Moor ISBN 1 902667 03 4 and Otterburn ISBN 1 902667 04 2.
All by Lynda Armstrong Designs, Border Miniatures, Keswick.
Full colour lists of the heraldry and the styles of armour from the records of the time.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:44 pm
by Stephen Dobson / Rab
Ta David, I'll check them out.

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:53 pm
by guthrie
I thought the Osprey boks had some information which might lead to period sources?

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:42 pm
by Nigel
But be careful with the plates rab some are simply shite

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:42 pm
by Alan_F
Stephen Dobson / Rab wrote:However, I'm still floundering through pages of Google where all the sites take Braveheart as their primary source whenever I look for Rolls of knights etc who participated and on which side in various battles - any suggestions?


It's worth bearing in mind the shifting allegiances of the time, for instance the Macdougalls who supported John Balliol against Edward I were against Robert the Bruce, also there were Scottish knights who took oaths of allegiance to the English crown under Edward I who later fought for Robert the Bruce.

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:37 am
by Stephen Dobson / Rab
Nigel - plates in Osprey books? Or the Pete Armstrong ones?

Alan - I knew that the whole sworn-liege and personal emnity thing made precise us versus them tricky, so the info you give about the Macdougalls is exactly the sort of thing I meant by battle-specific rolls of arms. Wouldn't it be nice if someone (and not me, I don't have the time or expertise) had/would come up with a great big diagram with lines of allegiance etc on it. Any volunteers?

Guthrie - what have you and the other CoSM folks been using as sources for your 1300 stuff?

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:58 am
by Nigel
Stephen Dobson / Rab wrote:Nigel - plates in Osprey books? Or the Pete Armstrong ones?

Alan - I knew that the whole sworn-liege and personal emnity thing made precise us versus them tricky, so the info you give about the Macdougalls is exactly the sort of thing I meant by battle-specific rolls of arms. Wouldn't it be nice if someone (and not me, I don't have the time or expertise) had/would come up with a great big diagram with lines of allegiance etc on it. Any volunteers?

Guthrie - what have you and the other CoSM folks been using as sources for your 1300 stuff?


the Opsreys studded Jacks yeah right

Have al ook at Old Glories specific figures well designed and correct spearmen in achetons etc and cheaper than foundry

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:12 pm
by guthrie
Stephen Dobson / Rab wrote:Guthrie - what have you and the other CoSM folks been using as sources for your 1300 stuff?

THe usual- Osprey books, and for civilian kit, the usual period manuscripts and MoL books etc. Basically anything from the period, the assumption is that we're lowlanders and therefore tied into the general Western culture. WEstern Isles people and Irish etc probably wore different clothing, but we'll be lowlanders/ English, depending on the necessity, so given the lack of evidence for anything at all in Scotland from this period, we're fine.

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:55 pm
by Stephen Dobson / Rab
Nigel wrote:the Opsreys studded Jacks


:shock:

Nigel wrote:Have al ook at Old Glories specific figures well designed and correct spearmen in achetons etc and cheaper than foundry


Will do, ta! Although the minis I'm currently considering (barring the kilted woad wearers), are eBob's RebellionMiniatures.