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Nigel
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Postby Nigel » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:40 am

Now thats not nice

He is lovley or so DEBS SAYS


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:43 am

he's a lousy kisser though


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

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Postby Nigel » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:23 pm

that she doesn't know


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

mac (crucesignati)

Postby mac (crucesignati) » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:10 am

Mark Griffin wrote:
2. Ignore getting the kit, grow a bl*!!dy beard before you do anything.

Templars who shave are not Templars.


By and large i suppose this is true. However, I refuse to believe that in all the time the Order was in existence there wasn't at least one Templar who could not grow a beard. It is not an unusual thing to be a smooth as a babies a*se without having to shave.



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Postby Templar Knight » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:30 pm

I want to join a Templar Group Pm me if you are still planning to make one. And yeah have a beard, im too young to have a beard but im not shaving my bum fluff lol. By the time im 16 i should have quite the beard :P


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Lord DeSpencer
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Postby Lord DeSpencer » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:44 pm

Hi Mac
Would be good to see Temps on the field except its getting harder to find battles that are early period as the 15 century poleys are taking over.
Lets get a good early battle going with no pole regiments being tuder pikes pretending to be 15th century spears.
:wink:


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Postby Templar Knight » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:50 pm

Make one up, the public will come to see a bloody death filled battle scene. It doesnt have to have historic backgrounds. Maybe a fight between Templars and Hospitallers as they are rivals or like bonekickers did have english mercenaries dressed as sarcaens or something. There is always something that can be done.


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Lord DeSpencer
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Postby Lord DeSpencer » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:09 pm

Hi we could work on getting one up and running for next year we would need plenty of combatants to make it worth while.
There is a lack of interest in early stuff latey.
We would need a massive publisty boost
to get people interested in using there swords again. :cry:


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Postby Templar Knight » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:11 pm

Well you got me in, im only 15 but have armour, doubt i can fight, but its 13th century so i can stand and look pretty. Idealy 30 people i imagine would be a good number to have it started, where abouts are you based?


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Carl / Sir Geoffrey
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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:34 am

Mark Griffin wrote:1. Read the Rules of the Order.


Is there a reliable copy of these available on line anywhere?


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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:52 am

For me it's lack of knowledge of the Templar Rule that lets many people down - the Rule forbids any ostentation, any decoration, any jewellery, pendants, engraved ornament and all the other detail that clashes with the idea of "Poor Knights".

It also emphasises the point the the Templars (and yes the Hospitallers and Leper Knights etc) were first and foremost a religious Order, so getting your head around the Holy Office should be a priority. If you can not recite the "Non nobis" you are not a Templar . . . if you have no idea at all what happens at Matins, Prime, Terce, Sext, Nones, Vespers and Compline you are no Templar. Since this was the basis of the Templar day, it would be ingrained into everyone within the Order.

So, repeating what someone else already said, read the Rule first. Then learn it by heart. Then try to imagine living it. Only then look to the military aspect; and leave out all the fancy decorative bits that have no place in the Templars.

A very good published version (with commentary) is at
http://www.boydellandbrewer.com/51157017.HTM

An early version is online at
http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religio ... _rule.html


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Postby Templar Knight » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:34 pm

I dont think it would be essential to know the rules off by heart, would be nice if everyone could though. The most important factor i think is the appearance of the armour an other dress wear, and the prayers that they would say such as "non nobis domine"
Timetable of Knight Templars day as according to Osprey Warrior Knight Templar Book;
At Night Matins in Chapel Brothers join in prayers, check horses and equipment and speak to squires, sleep until dawn

6 am Prime
Mass ( or after sext)
9 am Terce
12 noon sext repair armour make equipment etc, have lunch, knights first sitting, sergeants second, clerks read aloud while they eat, give thanks at chapel then go to their posts.
Mass if not heard earlier
3pm Nones
vespers for dad
vigils for dead
Dusk vespers followed by super
compline followed by a drink, check horses and equipment, speak to squire if neccesary
Bed Time


The day of a Templar ,


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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:05 pm

I recommended learning the Rule (there are several different versions of course) since this would mean the difference between simply dressing up as a Templar and getting into the Templar mindset. Not all re-enactors see beyond the "kit", but since we are fortunate enough to have access to the monastic Rules covering all the religious Orders it seems to me a waste not to at least attempt a full knowledge and understanding of them.

When I was asked to take on the character of a Benedictine monk some 8 years ago, the first thing I did was to learn the Rule of St Benedict (all 73 chapters), since this allowed me to become the character - not just a shop window dummy wearing a theatrical costume.

Of course it takes effort and some people will be averse to it . . .


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"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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zauberdachs
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Postby zauberdachs » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:52 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:Of course it takes effort and some people will be averse to it . . .


:lol:

I think I almost fell of my chair when I read that! Funny and perfectly sums up so many short comings in re-enactment :)



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Carl / Sir Geoffrey
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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:53 pm

Thank you very much for the references Brother Ranulf.

Now I have some light reading to do :shock:


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Postby Templar Knight » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:53 pm

Hmm yeah. Well no one wash there braies then, got to be nice and smelly like the Templars where lol


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red razors
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Postby red razors » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:20 pm

templar was the big reenactment "fashion" amongst my peer group last year :) i only got as far as making myself a cappa. i was going to rock the boat and declare myself hospitaller but i am a weakling when it comes to peer pressure. one of my favourite photos of me and my boys is in templar kit.



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Postby Templar Knight » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:33 pm

Seems like alot of people are intrested in the Templars, suprised there hasnt been a sole Templar group created already unless there is and I havent heard about it.


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Postby mac (crucesignati) » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:30 am

I think that's down to the usual obstacles such as time, lack of publicity and organisation. As i said, i had a mind to do just that but couldn't dedicate the time to make this great idea a reality. Even got as far as drawing up a structure for a society which seemed to be recieved well by those I showed it to. Must admit though, it would be great to take to the field with more than one - three people dressed as members of the Order.

I do believe it is quite important to have a half-decent working knowledge of the Rule to portray the role. And as mentioned in earlier posts, being able to recite the Pater Noster should be a must. It looks great for the MoPs.

So, how about getting it together for next season?



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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:02 am

Go for it. There does seem to be a level of enthusiasm out there - given the right approach and a degree of control I believe this could be an important and worthwhile venture. Good luck to all involved.


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Carl / Sir Geoffrey
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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:05 am

Pater noster, qui es in caelis:
sanctificetur Nomen Tuum;
adveniat Regnum Tuum;
fiat voluntas Tua,
sicut in caelo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie;
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
Sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;
et ne nos inducas in tentationem;
sed libera nos a Malo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord's_Prayer


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:31 am

Mention of the Paternoster is certainly appropriate; members of the order carried a paternoster in order to mark the Holy Offices when away from a preceptory or chapel. They were not called rosaries until much later.

In Sir Geoffrey's text "cotidianum" can also appear as "quotidianum", essentially the same word but you may find both versions in different contemporary texts.

The "Ave Maria" used depends on the time period. Throughout the 12th century and for the first half of the 13th, it goes:

Ave Maria, gratia plena,
Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Et benedictus fructus ventris tui.

At some point in the 1260s the name of Jesus was added at the end; the remainder of the prayer as it is known today is post-Templar by a long way.

The "Non nobis" was a favourite prayer of the Templars, but was certainly not exclusive to them:

Non nobis Domine, non nobis,
sed nomini tuo da gloriam.

Forget the wikipedia article on this, which is complete pants, and the Henry V version which is a Tudor re-write. In the 12th and 13th century this was the form used and it would have been set to plainsong (Gregorian Chant).


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"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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Postby mac (crucesignati) » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:37 pm

Ranulf, contemporary accounts cite the Templars singing psalm 9 (off the top of my head, I think this is the one I remember reading they used - will find out for sure), do you know or have a copy of this psalm?



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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:18 pm

Psalm 9 mentions the "swords of the enemy" being ineffective, so it may have been a favourite - but the point of the Holy Offices was to sing all 150 psalms over the course of a week. For the medieval Church, the psalms were a ready-made hymn book and each of the 8 daily services incorporated a number of them with prayers and responses in between.

There is a very good Latin/English psalter at

http://medievalist.net/psalmstxt/pshome.htm

The discrepancy in numbering of the psalms comes from the difference between the Greek and Hebrew versions and between medieval and reformation versions. Psalm 9 would be the first portion of that numbered 9 and 10 in the psalter.

Not only would a Templar (like any other monk) be expected to learn all 150 psalms in Latin, but also the plainsong tune that went with each one. Still, they didn't have to watch Bonekickers or Big Brother, so they had plenty of time on their hands . . .


Brother Ranulf



"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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Postby mac (crucesignati) » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:55 pm

I didn't ask my q properly - soz. I meant to say that they were said to sing the psalm as they charged into battle. I wouldn't mind finding out how to say it.

I've taken the liberty of creating a Facebook group for the idea in this thread. Don't know what peoples opinions on Facebook are, but it is a good method to maintain communications between a group of people. So if you're interested, take a look at it - I've made it a admin only invite just to keep it exclusively for those that are interested in pursuing the idea of a group for next season. Mail or PM me if you want to join the Fbook group.



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Carl / Sir Geoffrey
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Postby Carl / Sir Geoffrey » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:34 pm

I know that Wikipedia is often not the most reliable of sources, but without specialist hard copy references it is often the easiest.

Brother Ranulf, (or any body else) are you able to point us in the direction of a decent recording of some of the common prayers, such as the pater noster, ave maria and the non nobis?

I have found some on You Tube, but they are either poor quality or set to modern music.

On a separate note, I have been reading the rules and was interested to see that, in relation to beards and moustaches, "no excess may be noted on their bodies". Does this mean that body hair should nor be longer than beard and moustache hair or vice versa and that beards should be kept neatly trimmed?


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Postby Templar Knight » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:47 pm

hmm i just looked at a pasternoster done by Pope John Paul II that is done to modern music but it gives you good idea of how to prenounce it
link if anyones intrested http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6kmVyiuA6DY

I am currently trying to setup a timetable of the Knights Templars day cross refrencing over various sources, but it includes prayer times and eating times and such, if anyone intrested wants to see it they can pm me and ill email it when its finished. (note i dont know how accurate it will be but i am hoping it is at least decent) lol


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red razors
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Postby red razors » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:13 pm

Carl / Sir Geoffrey wrote: "no excess may be noted on their bodies".
perhaps the templars were the secret originators of the "back sack and crack"? :wink:



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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:11 am

Sorry - took my eyes off the ball there (no pun intended).

Re Sir Geoffrey's question on hair and beards ("no excess may be noted on their bodies"), I take this to refer back to hair and beards and to forbid anyone looking like Radovan Karadzic in disguise as Father Christmas. I guess it could also refer to trimming other things like fingernails and toenails.

I do not believe body hair would be an issue for people who slept fully dressed and rarely washed - Gerald of Wales is quite specific in maintaining that the 12th century Welsh were very unusual in shaving off their body hair: "Of all the people I have seen the Welsh are the most particular in shaving the lower part of the body" (Description of Wales, Book 1 Chapter 11).

The general drift of all monastic Rules is for moderation in all things - both shaved bodies and rampant beards like Karadzic would be unacceptable extremes (or "excess")..


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"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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Postby Alan_F » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:16 pm

Something that I'm interested in is what are the the different roles within the Orders, are all the fighting men just knights or are there common soldiers as well?


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