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Scottish Wars of Independence I - Have I got this right ...?

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:07 pm
by RottenCad
My proposed rig for First Scottish Wars of Independence ...

LOWER HALF
Base Layer (Layer 0):
Linen braies
Shoes

Layer 1:
Padded split arming hose, pointed to braies

Layer 2:
Mail legs, brace & bib attachment over shoulders, and pointed to arming hose

Layer 4:
Padded / Gamboised cuisses, pointed to arming doublet front and rear, with poleyns at knee.
Plate schynbalds
Sabatons

UPPER HALF
Layer 0:
Linen T-slot collar shirt

Layer 1:
Arming doublet

Layer 2:
Hauberk
Cuire bouille vambraces, pointed to doublet
Mailed mittens, pointed to hauberk.

Layer 3:
Coat of plates

Layer 4:
Surcoat

HEAD
Layer 0:
Arming cap

Layer 1:
Mail coif

Layer 2:
Secret

Layer 3:
Torse

Layer 4:
Bucket helm

Layer 5:
Helm mantle.

Criticisms and corrections welcome!

Cad

Re: Scottish Wars of Independence I - Have I got this right

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:23 pm
by Colin MacDonald
That's very thorough! Constructive comments:
RottenCad wrote: Layer 1:
Padded split arming hose, pointed to braies
I'm not sure that we have evidence for these at this period, but I'd welcome a correction.

RottenCad wrote: Plate schynbalds
Sabatons
Only towards the end of the period. I'd drop them for circa 1300, unless you're portraying top-drawer nobility. One instance is shown on the Maciejowski (on Goliath) but that seems to be an weird anachronism as they then (apparently) disappear until post 1300.

RottenCad wrote:Cuire bouille vambraces, pointed to doublet
I don't know of any evidence for them, although there is an extant upper arm hardened leather rerebrace dated to "1st quarter 14th century". Also, I have hardened leather vambraces myself, so I'll shut up now. ;)

RottenCad wrote:Mailed mittens, pointed to hauberk.
AFAIK, they should be integral with the hauberk (but again, mine are thonged on).
RottenCad wrote:Coat of plates
And references to "pair of plates" and "curie" seem to be contemporaneous with Wisby style coats of plates, so you may want to feel free to experiment a bit. ;)
RottenCad wrote:Layer 1:
Mail coif

Layer 2:
Secret
Based on the Maciejowski, simple domed skullcaps were worn under the coif, so I'd swap those layers over.

The only thing that I'd add to this list would be ailettes.

Re: Scottish Wars of Independence I - Have I got this right

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:28 pm
by guthrie
Colin MacDonald wrote:That's very thorough! Constructive comments:
RottenCad wrote: Layer 1:
Padded split arming hose, pointed to braies
I'm not sure that we have evidence for these at this period, but I'd welcome a correction.
Isn't the point more that without them, your legs get a bit sore and if someone was to hit you, even more sore?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:15 am
by Alan_F
Although that is more Lowland style: there's also the Gallowglass and their retinue who are dressed and armed differently.

Re: Scottish Wars of Independence I - Have I got this right

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:27 am
by Phil the Grips
guthrie wrote:Isn't the point more that without them, your legs get a bit sore and if someone was to hit you, even more sore?
I used to wear my chausses all day (once they were on they were staying on!) over normal woollen hose and never had any problem with chaffing or the like. Apart from a bit of extra weight there was no problem wearing them at all.

If someone is going to hit your legs (bearing in mind the leg armour is primarily for when on horseback and the best thing they can reach is your legs as they are "trapped" in the stirrup irons) then it's going to hurt anyway- no matter what you wear underneath.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:32 am
by zauberdachs
looks good.

I would second Mr MacDonald's comments on the integral mittens. Also about the Sabatons, plate/leather re-enforcement are on the rare side in the 1300's.

I have the Visby book, which has a detailed chapter on the early coats of plates, and I kind of bought it to pass on to you for making your coat of plates anyway...

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:58 am
by Zachos
Why go too all this bother?

Just a kilt and a big sword are all you need.


And blue facepaint.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:14 am
by Mark Griffin
kilts only come in early 19th cent. You want a plaid. An an australian accent.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:51 am
by PaulMurphy
A few comments:

Vambraces - the available evidence suggests that knees and elbows were protected first, so you need some elbow cops rather than (or as well as) the vambraces. As Colin has said, the evidence for vambraces at this time is limited.

Arming doublet - technical point, but its still a gambeson/akheton at this time, so it needs to be as long as the mail, even though this creates an overlap with the lower levels.

Padded cuisses - with the gambeson covering this area, there's little need for another layer of padding. If you want to wear them, don't point them to the gambeson, as it's virtually impossible given that they're on top of each other. Instead, hang them from a belt as per your braies.

Padded hose - I have some which I wear for 1340-ish, but they're not essential. As with almost all padding, there's little evidence for it.

Schynbalds - if you think they had the technology to do these in steel, then the vambraces should also be in steel. Early vambraces were probably just like gutter plates, but then so probably were early [schynbalds]. The evidence tends to suggest to me that they were steel.

Sabatons - not before about 1330, from memory.

Apart from that, I'd agree with everyone else's comments, especially on the aillettes - they're the single most distinctive feature of this period.

Paul.

[Edited to correct brain twitch]

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:37 pm
by RottenCad
Thank you everybody for the very useful and constructive criticism. I'll head back for a little scalp-scratching, but it's nice to know I'm not TOO far out.

I'll answer individual points shortly (by which obviously I mean I'll be asking more questions!) following the bonce-cudgelling!

TTFN!

Cad

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:30 pm
by Biro
Layer 2:
Mail legs, brace & bib attachment over shoulders, and pointed to arming hose


Probably worth experimenting with the legs attatchement. Mine are fine attatched to the waist, and the thing with mail is that all of the weight hangs from the shoulders. Anything you can to to take it away from the shoulders and down to a lower centre of gravity (peferably the waist as it doesn't strain the back) is well worth while.

The thing to remember is that they are tied below the knees too - which holds the weight from that point down - so the waist only needs to take the weight of the top-half of the chausses.

Oh and integral mail feet too - you'll want those :) They're a pain to make fit without looking huge

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:37 pm
by Colin MacDonald
Heck, it's very close, and a lot of it is open to interpretation anyway. The available European sources for 1296 - 1328 show a lot of variation. The knights on the Codex Manesse (circa 1304) have no external plate other than their helmets, while the Luttrell Psalter (1332 - 1342) shows Sir Geoffrey with plate (over mail) all down his arms and legs, including sabatons. See also Sir Sir John d'Abernoun (1327) and others.

Oh, and while I remember, these latter period knights are wearing either a bascinet over a coif, or a combined bascinet and coif, which appears to have been worn under a great helm, so your original layering of head protection is actually possible, at least towards the end of the period.

Incidentally, I can't think of any individual reenactor who has all of the kit that you listed, although Phil may surprise me. ;)

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:44 pm
by zauberdachs
Colin MacDonald wrote:Heck, it's very close, and a lot of it is open to interpretation anyway. The available European sources for 1296 - 1328 show a lot of variation. The knights on the Codex Manesse (circa 1304) have no external plate other than their helmets, while the Luttrell Psalter (1332 - 1342) shows Sir Geoffrey with plate (over mail) all down his arms and legs, including sabatons. See also Sir Sir John d'Abernoun (1327) and others.

Oh, and while I remember, these latter period knights are wearing either a bascinet over a coif, or a combined bascinet and coif, which appears to have been worn under a great helm, so your original layering of head protection is actually possible, at least towards the end of the period.

Incidentally, I can't think of any individual reenactor who has all of the kit that you listed, although Phil may surprise me. ;)
Don't forget the Holkham folk bible has secrets over coifs as well 1327-1335

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:09 pm
by narvek
Zaub: they've got WHAT? sorry, but don't understand:(

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:17 pm
by zauberdachs
You see nobles fighting and some have small plain helmets over the top of their coifs?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:27 pm
by narvek
yeap...so you're talking about strange typas of helmets in Holkham, yes?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:35 pm
by zauberdachs
um... no, a fairly common helmet. A simple plain cap of metal. Easiest helmet to make...

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:41 pm
by zauberdachs
here's two I have to hand.

one from the Mary Queen Psalter and the other the Holkham bible.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:49 pm
by narvek
yeap, that was exatly what I had in mind.Just the "secrets" startled me. And what draws my attention are the leg plates in the Holkham bible. They're definetly not common in this age, are they?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:59 pm
by zauberdachs
narvek wrote:yeap, that was exatly what I had in mind.Just the "secrets" startled me. And what draws my attention are the leg plates in the Holkham bible. They're definetly not common in this age, are they?
The people depicted are not, I don't think, common infantry. I think they are supposed to be the professional garrison of Berwick, so not your everyday peasant levy.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:01 pm
by narvek
yeah, I known that, just maiking myself sure. I really like that picture, you posted. Even had an axe made by it.

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:20 pm
by Ian Macintyre
Ailletes.

Certainly they are a feature of some images of the period but I'm not convinced they are as universal as Colin and Paul suggest. I have images that show clearly groups of knights, some with, some without.

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:15 pm
by Colin MacDonald
Apologies if I gave that impression. I agree with Paul's description of them as "distinctive", and wouldn't claim that they were universal. ;)

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:46 pm
by Chris T
Ailletes look good, easy to make, and very period distinctive.

'Secret' is not a very period term: it may be worn over or under a coif, but call it a helmet (little helm!) or cervalier.

I would agree that mail legs should probably be supported from the waist. IMO seperate mail gloves would be OK by now, as would those integral with the gambeson.