Wanted joined hose pattern

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Tod
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Wanted joined hose pattern

Postby Tod » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:22 pm

Following on from the knee armour thread.
I want to get a pair of hose made and then try and re-enforce them to support the knee armour.
At this stage I don't want to get some else to make the hose (Jackie Philips, top seamstress as far as I'm concerned) as I'm going to mess about with them.
Where can I get a good pattern that works?



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Re: Wanted joined hose pattern

Postby Eric the well read » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:38 pm

Tod wrote:Where can I get a good pattern that works?


'Off your body' is about the only answer I can give you, Tod.
The original material used (mix of S & Z ply) is hardly made any more and any substitute is going to have different amounts of stretch depending on what you pick.
The only ones made commercially (& cheap) have Lycra in them which washes out and leaves them baggy. Otherwise, it's pin the material round you and get cutting.
Sorry

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Postby Nigel » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:12 pm

what thta man said

Theres a step by step how to fit hose guide in the Tudor Tailor


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Postby Tod » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:49 pm

The Tudor Taylor I forgotten I'd bought that.



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Postby Jenn » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:02 pm

she also sells patterns including one for hose- she certainly had at the TORM although its not yet on her website
might be worth contacting her and asking though
http://www.kissthefrog.co.uk



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:11 pm

Keep the waist band to the hip bone height, not the man waist though - that is more Tudor.

I suggest that you get a close fitting pair of trousers, jeans with no give in them.

pin them creating a 'seam' along the middle of the back of the legs, starting a coupl of inches from the centre line of the back (where the two legs join).

Pin it well (you will need help) and then mark up the seam line

Then cut the trousers along the croth part to the middle part to separate the leg. Cut off the leg seam and cut along the marked up lines, lay flat.

You will have a shape that has the rear bum panel - a strange rounded strip and the leg - opened flat.

lay this over your wool, on the bias, pin it to the wool, draw a seam allowance, if you are feeling brave do half inch - bear in mind if you cock it up you might have some piecing to do. Do for both legs, join.

Keep the joins as tight (ie up) to the back of your sack as possible, the lower the join is in relation to it, the more it bridges as you move and the more likely it will split.

cut out a lining for the top half at the same time as the main piece, give it the same seam allowance. do not sew bottom of lining, imagine suit trousers they have a moving lining, reduces stretch (rides over) and strengthens.

Fiddle about with the fitting before worrying about points.
Last edited by gregory23b on Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:32 pm

gregory23b wrote:Keep the joins as tight (ie up) to the back of your sack as possible

Emphasise this part- right up to the barse/nothca/taint is essential.


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Postby Tuppence » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:13 am

the only time I've made hosen that fit without getting far closer to the client than I like to think about, it's been a complete fluke.

you need the fabric, lots of pins, and somebody who doesn't mind fiddling about in your crotch. only way to make it really work.

and unless very lucky, they'll need to re-pinned four or five times.
did I mention I hate hosen?


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:43 am

Makes me wonder how they managed to sell them off the peg, must have been a lot of allowance for either stretch or fit, or both. Nightmare.


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Postby Dave B » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:52 am

Given that Hose were sold off the peg, does that imply that they wouldn't have actually fitted as well as we assume? after all it is possible that if the style was for them to be tight and well fitted the artist just painted them that way anyway to make the picture look 'better'

Or is it that because people of all classes generaly got a lot more exercise than we do today they had legs that were a better shape for hose than us lumpen re-enactors.

Brings me on to a question. I need some new hose. I managed through fluke to buy a pair that really did fit right about 7 years ago, and have repaired and repaired but theres not much left to repair now. since then I've bought several pairs that havn't been anything like, although they were perfectly well made. I think the problem is that I just have fat thighs and skinny ankles.

I havent the time or currently much money to get into repeated fittings. I was going to have a last try, and get some HE hose, but it's still quite a bit of money if they end up not quite right.

Any suggestions?


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Postby Eric the well read » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:12 am

Dave B wrote:Given that Hose were sold off the peg, does that imply that they wouldn't have actually fitted as well as we assume?


Not necessarily, the original material was VERY elastic and stretches in all dimensions!
(The only time I've seen anything remotely like it, made today, was for the sail of a viking longship)!

As to suggestions, Know any weavers?
There is somebody out there willing to make this material in bulk.Cost? about £20,000(!)

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Postby Tod » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:23 pm

Would that mean they are not made of the well felted wool we all seem to use?
Stretchy sounds like unfelted wool, but that wouldn't work.
Ideas on a postcard please.



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Postby Eric the well read » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:40 pm

Tod wrote:Would that mean they are not made of the well felted wool we all seem to use?
Stretchy sounds like unfelted wool, but that wouldn't work.
Ideas on a postcard please.


The nearest thing you can find today is a 2:2 weave
Suggest you contact Debbie @ Mulberry dyer (posts on here as 'fishwife')
who I know has, or can provide some.
Hope this helps
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Postby seamsmistress » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:50 pm

I'm with 2d on this as I too balk[or even run screaming] at the notion of having to do joined hose! I've made lots, perfectly well, but the fiddling involved is so time consuming that it's all but impossible to make them to measure for an acceptable retail price. And of course, it really helps if you and your customer like each other alot, as the intimacy involved at fitting possibly exceeds that you might experience with your partner!

As to off the peg hose - well, if all you do is make hose and have plenty of stock in many shape and size combinations, and a customer with a day or two to spare to try lots on, then chances are that customer will eventually get lucky!

I'm not convinced that Artists always vamped up their paintings with tight hose to make for a better image; even if they only painted the top end of society and that showed historical reality, the lower orders would have aspired to improved cut and fit. Someone said "we most covet that which we see every day" and fashion desires are as old as mankind wearing clothes as far as I can tell.

Just my opinion for what it's worth.



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Postby Dave B » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:09 pm

seamsmistress wrote:I'm not convinced that Artists always vamped up their paintings with tight hose to make for a better image


It's almost impossible to know, but when you see pictures with labourers and soldiers so clean shaven, and Schillings soldiers with their immaculate locks, I just start to suspect that the artists just wanted everyone to look smart.

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Postby BrendanGrif » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:10 pm

I used the pattern guide in the Medieval Tailors Assistant and it worked well enough - as in I had never made *any* hose before and over the course of the afternoon managed to create a fitted set having first made a toille.

Whatever about the pinning the cutting is where it becomes a matter of trust. Far better to let a man do that bit himself.

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Postby Eric the well read » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:16 pm

seamsmistress wrote: And of course, it really helps if you and your customer like each other alot, as the intimacy involved at fitting possibly exceeds that you might experience with your partner!


I think there's an opportunity here for an historic board game much like "Twister" Called 'Fitting your Hose' :wink: The only problem I can foresee is that the amount of pins used would become a HSE issue!
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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:54 pm

I have been recomended Cloth Hall for material (in general) and Lindy was good enough to provide me some very promising looking wool for hoes. I'll be making them this winter.

I'm told that you want to use a type of wool called Kersy (I think), which it not combed and felted like broadcloths are, but you can see the weave to it. Check the stretch of the wool when you pull it on the diagonal, the more it stretches the better. I think that 2 yards will do you 1 pair or you can get 2 pairs out of 3 yards (because you're cutting them on the bias.

I'm not sure that we could still weave the type of wool that they used. If you bear in mind that wools from different areas were used for different purposes and that modern sheep are very different from their medieval ancestors (twice as much wool on them for one), it is probable that the wool comming off the sheep had different properties (such as stretch) before you even started spinning and weaving it. Without those sheep, we could have had it!

Finally, did off the peg hoes have feet and were they closed or open? If you make open hoes with a stirup foot (and leave the stirup un-sewen to fit to the buyer), you'll get a much better fit more easily than if you make closed, footed hoes with have no forgiveness in them.

Good luck Tod


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Postby gregory23b » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:34 pm

Seasmistress
"I'm not convinced that Artists always vamped up their paintings with tight hose to make for a better image; even if they only painted the top end of society and that showed historical reality, the lower orders would have aspired to improved cut and fit."

They are slightly different aspects to that argument, the aspiration of the poor is not a concern of the artist unless ordered to do so.

Normal people are very much under represented in medieval art, to the scale that you would imagine a world full of kings, nobility and some few lower orders and the odd farmer. The reality was something else. But reality is not portryaed in imagery, it is contrived set up, the elements chosen for effect. The rich patron of the great works are not paying for realism, which is why the peasants look well dressed.

The other thing to think about is practicality from the painter's perspective, the method of producing the books in the late middle ages was akin to mass production, people getting paid per page, not time spent. If you reflect on the MSS images of soldiers they are very often presented as a homogenous mass, same kit, same colours and weapons, esp the 15thc rendering of Froissart's chronicles. simple lines are much easier to draws and therefore quicker.

The poor and the lower orders do not have a say. Why would patron X want to have his commission to show real people? he sees them every day.

And anyone who has worn clothing that they beleive to do the job, eg work clothing will realise that overalls are worn very differently from suits, no matter the aspiration of the guy in the overalls. Tight hose are not practical for the labouring (majority of tasks in the middle ages) sorts, whether dyers, builders.

Some very clear exceptions to that are the Wolfegg Hausbuch, where people are shown in a stylised way but also real people are shown accoutered how we would expect them to be, miners with sack hoods, men fishing in their underwear, wrinkled hose - lots of them.

The problem as always is sifting the vision from the reality, impossible in many cases.

Panle painting, esp the Flemish are a different kettle of fish, larger formats mean more detail is used, but even then there is realistic and then there is realistic.


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Postby Hraefn » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:31 pm

Who did the 15thC hanged men paintings? Memling? Aaaargh! damn this senility............. Anyways there are some sketches of a hanged man wearing ragged hose and they are close fitting, why would a pauper be shown in 'fashionably tight' hose.....discuss.


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:00 am

G23b, interesting comments but doesn't that mean that we can't really trust any medieval images as references for the common man? (except for maybe the Wolfegg Hausbuch, and the Flemish panels!)

DaveB, where and when is that image from? Did anyone else spot the rolled down bucket top boots on the man in the top left? :D And the man in the front row in suspenders! :shock:

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Postby gregory23b » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Hraefn, have a rough look at the pics that come to mind, even peasants are often portrayed wearing snug fittign kit, rarely worn out, as I suggested it is a way of portraying a relaity that was not the case.

Many of the miniatures we use as reference are tiny, a few inches across, it is to be expected from whaty we know of their manufacture and the practicality of potraying minute detail that hose are often smooth and snug.

The skethces, eg the mantegna and da vinci (amongst many others) are often bigger than any element in the miniatures.

The nature of miniature painting is not representational to the finite degree. We expect far too much of the late medieval miniaturist.

Upscale and we get more detail, when required. We do not for one minute believe that Flemish people were really tall and slender - Dirk Bouts - we accept a stylistic convention, so, with what we know why is it hard to accept that many portrayals we see are in reality deceptions?

John, yes and no, we have to tie them up with what we know and what we want to believe, scale is easy to sort out, we know that in some pics scales of things are totally out of whack. Most paintings are part of an agenda and are contrived to meet it. It is really hard to just use paintings as sources for human potrayals, yet for objects it is much easier, they are what they are - mostly.


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Postby Dave B » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:44 pm

Laffin Jon Terris wrote:DaveB, where and when is that image from? Did anyone else spot the rolled down bucket top boots on the man in the top left? :D And the man in the front row in suspenders! :shock:

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It's Diebold Schilling. I think it's from the great berne chronicle, but it could be one of the others. there's loads of his pictures kicking about - have a look on the net.


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:09 pm

I think that people are overlooking that factor of shrinkage in this fit-by-status debate.

Those who could afford a fashionable court fit went for it. You can't make hose to fit AND off the peg - however, look at old wool kit: everyone knows that wool shrinks when washed or when soaked by rain unless it is stretched back into shape. What we overlook is that this shrinkage continues even with ambient damp in the air, and that is when you don't think to reshape by stretching - becuase it is only a little damp air - not even drizzle.

So if you are working outdoors all day, without the modern constant change of clothing we have , your clothes will be shrinking to fit over a period of time - rather like the old new-jeans-hot-bath job!

Look at anyone with really authentic looking kit that registers as clothing rather than costume: frequently it has served several seasons and moulded to that persons figure - hence it looking so right.



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:23 am

But working kit is seldom spray on*, which seems to be the main question, that judging by a tiny MSS image or so we can extrapolate that all hose were a second skin, other visual sources (less concerend with manufacture) contradict that from the get go.

Yet to see a wrinkle free pair of hose, even those tights for stage still kink behind the knees.

* unless of course you are a model who poses in painted on clothing, then I will allow that, so long as I get first dibs on the cold cream.


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:10 am

Fitted doesn't have to be spray-on - although First-born Spawn has modelled same as he has grown through kit and it has still (surprisingly) functioned. However I put this down to four things: fit tight to the goolies, cut the centre seam with your model standing straddle-legged, choice of fabric , adding extra length to the leg.


I hate hose.



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:17 am

Sure I appreciate that, I hate hose too, I wish I was a girl, hey, I can be if I really want.


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Postby Alice the Huswyf » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:37 pm

Short hair and sensible shoes - by golly I thought you were one already!



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:57 pm

But baaad pants, verrry baad


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Postby Tod » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:42 am

Christmas holiday project.
None of my modern trousers/jeans split in the way my, or other peoples hose seem to. The pictures of joined hose looked like the cod piece joins well under the meat and veg.
So, either the design is totally wrong and that's why they split, or the cod piece pulls them up against the crutch and makes them tight.
If either of the above were correct it would explain how at the time they could have sold them off the peg.
I'm still having trouble understanding how they sold them when they weren't bespoke and they didn't split. But, my trews (17th 18th century) are of a similar design and they don't split.
Time to compare designs..........
G23b's design works, as does the one in the Medieval Costume book, but they are bespoke.




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