Scots DID wear KILTS.. PRE-1600 by a long way

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Postby Alan_F » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:42 pm

Nigel, how can I be offended by someone who allows me to spend a merry afternoon shouting orders at his spearmen? 8)


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Postby guthrie » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:45 pm

Letter sent to Prof. Barrow.
We'll see how long it takes to get an answer.
It took 4 days when I wrote to the Lord Lyon last week regarding the use of heraldic arms by re-enactors. (the quick answer is use anyone you likes, as long as you don't pretend they belong to you- this is what we thought anyway, but now I have a note from the highest authority to say so)



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Postby Alan_F » Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:48 pm

guthrie wrote:Letter sent to Prof. Barrow.
We'll see how long it takes to get an answer.
It took 4 days when I wrote to the Lord Lyon last week regarding the use of heraldic arms by re-enactors. (the quick answer is use anyone you likes, as long as you don't pretend they belong to you- this is what we thought anyway, but now I have a note from the highest authority to say so)


It may take a wee bit of time, seeing as how term started not that long ago and he may be busier than usual.


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Postby RottenCad » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:40 am

So we'll need to wait before speaking to the Bravehearters Arguing Movie Plot Obviously True (BAMPOT) brigade ...!

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Postby Ian Macintyre » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:58 pm

Just a note in the wind. Being a natural dissenter myself.

I think Arkadian does deserve a bit more respect here.

He's almost definatley wrong about plaids but no need to be rude to him or treat him poorly. People are entitled to dissenting opinions in academia. If thats what you purport to be defending then insults have no place.

When I was going against the flow a year or so ago on another aspect of Scots history of this period I was treated better. Afford people respect and they will be respectful in return.


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Postby zauberdachs » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:30 pm

Indeed, and if I might add, the argument that "I'm being rude because someone else was rude to me first" is a little bit ... well ... 8 year old children in the play ground?


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Postby m300572 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:43 pm

What is the big deal anyway? I have benn led to understand, by various means, that the kilt (as it is now known) was an 18th century adaption of a pretty outdated form of clothing worn by one section of the scotish people, namely the plaid. I have also been led to understand that the greater bulk of "ancient" tartans were invented by Anglo-Scotish Victorians


The modern kilt is said to have been created by an iron master who employed a lot of highlanders at his furnace - by sewing round the pleated bit and then cutting off all the rest of a full sized plaid he created a garment that was more practicable for working in the conditions of an ironworks. It would have been even more convenient to make the material into breeches in my opinion but there you go! :D

I think John Prebble describes the creation/attribution of particular setts to clans in his book 'The King's Jaunt' which is an excellent and accessible account of the creation of the Tartan Scottishness phenomenon by Sir Walter Scott et al for George IVs visit. There are a fair number of setts of tartan which survive in historical garments and fragments (allegedly worn by BPC/Rob Roy/historical figure of your choice) and in portraits. In the case of the portraits the appropriate gentry looked at Grandad's picture and decided that his family would use the sett represented in the portrait. Thereafter, once the highland lot had decided they all had 'Clan' tartans, the assorted lowlanders, whose predecessors wouldn't have been seen dead dresed like a teuchter savage, started to create tartan setts for their families and called the self same families 'Clans'. And so into the 20th C when all sorts of individuals, organisations and companies have their own tartans (which are simply cloth where the warp and weft have the same sequence of coloured threads in the weave so were probably widespread in the past across the world, a bit like bagpipes and haggis-like dishes).

As for the dating of the plaid as worn by 18th C highlanders, so far no one has come up with unambiguous evidence for its wear in the 14th C - on the basis of playing safe with the evidence then re-enactors portraying Lowland Scots, and probably highlanders as well, should wear garments for which there is evidence. If Arkadian can come up with unambiguous evidence from the period (or earlier if he can find a new Pictish symbol stone or whatever) then we can take our hats off to him for his perseverance.


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Postby Attilla the Bun » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:57 pm

Image

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:25 pm

Hey! I got something right for a change. Log and note this for the next time I make a cock-up.


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Postby Nigel » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:01 pm

zauberdachs wrote:Indeed, and if I might add, the argument that "I'm being rude because someone else was rude to me first" is a little bit ... well ... 8 year old children in the play ground?


sorry Ian and BEN But Iam just rude

ian you were afforede respect because you ahve earned it you didnt rock in kick the door open pur the buffet onto the floor and stamp on the toys unlike others around here


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Postby guthrie » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:02 pm

zauberdachs wrote:Indeed, and if I might add, the argument that "I'm being rude because someone else was rude to me first" is a little bit ... well ... 8 year old children in the play ground?


Bearing the above in mind, perhaps Arkadian would care to comment on the following quotes:

ooooh....ooooooh... MacT... I LOVE YOU... i am off to that tollie reenactors forum armed with that..LOLOL
* have put it there in the forum and said i will follow up with further cources.
can't wait to see what they reply. guaranteed it's gonna be a load of billeous flaps!


i'll also adapt yer above post MacT. it's getting slated by the usual scrota over at living history. but i'll mention the book above. i am guessing that book is a source of primary evidence?..lol


any "primary" reference to that Niall? as you can see those chaps have a woody for "primary" references


Now, I submit that your behaviour in this matter is entertaining, to say the least. Whilst you are perfectly entitled to state your views, it is amusing to compare your behaviour on that other forum and on here. Actually yuo have been comparatively more civilised on here than over there, perhaps recognising the different standards of behaviour, nevetheless, perhaps you might like to consider what yourself and others have said on that thread.
I would also like to reply to misconceptions that certain people have on that thread regarding re-enacting, perhaps you could put them up?

We will still definitely be interested in whatever evidence you can come up with regarding belted plaids, but be sure to check its authenticity first of all.



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Postby Alan_F » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:04 pm

Why am I not surprised?

And another thing: Anyone who studies history will tell you this quite categorically, if you write an essay and use only one book as a source, it's bound to be marked down as a failure. Because any historian worth their salt will want to look at as many different sources and intrepretations of those sources before coming to an informed opinion and they will still leave that open for discussion. There is no one single history book that has all the answers: combine what is available and you will probably find something and a lot more as well.


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Postby Tuppence » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:16 pm

i am guessing that book is a source of primary evidence?..lol


ignoring for a moment all the other comments that guthrie quotes, which are a fairly conclusive indication of a troll at work, and somebody who therefore deserves as much rudeness as he can be given...

...to which book does this refer? from what date?




mind you, there does seem to be a distinct misunderstanding of the whole primary / secondary source thing with regard to clothing and costume - including from historians and academics trained in other areas and disciplines.

in costume, strictly speaking, the only true primary sources are extant items themselves (not matter how small the fragments may be).

anything else is a secondary source, as it can be coloured by all sorts of motives of which the writer / artist may have been in possession that we can't know about.
there are contemporary secondary sources (which are undoubtedly real evidence), and later ones (which are opinion, based on a study of the evidence (one would hope :roll: ), and the indicators as to where to find the real evidence).

I have to admit that I do fall into the ususal trap of calling anything contemporary a primary source, mainly because most people I talk to consider it such, due to their background being in what some academics would call 'real' history, rather than in clothing.

but that's just cos it saves confusion.



so then, arkadian, where was that contemporary evidence you've been promising for months?


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Postby Simon_Diment » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:16 pm

Come on guys, surely the best way to act would be to ignore the re-enactor baiting and try to remain open minded :D If Arkadian can find some primary evidence then all well and good, let's face it he shows no signs of going quietly into the night. :shock:

btw I know of a well published historian who's never carried out any original research of his own he merely uses other books as evidence without checking their accuracy.


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:30 pm

Interesting thread.

Be nice to see the primary evidence, I don't think 'the woody' is the issue, more like the thing that either supports or destroys ones case.

Great making claims, but they do have to be backed up, the onus being on the claimer, in this case we wait with baited breath.

A hunch tells me the joke has backfired though, laughing at the call for primary source seems to caste doubt on the credibility of someone purporting to be studying a history degree....whatever turns you on I guess.


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Postby guthrie » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:19 pm

Tuppence wrote:
i am guessing that book is a source of primary evidence?..lol


ignoring for a moment all the other comments that guthrie quotes, which are a fairly conclusive indication of a troll at work, and somebody who therefore deserves as much rudeness as he can be given...

Actually I don't think he is trolling, in the sense of wandering about looking for a fight, I think he genuinely thinks that was an adequate post regarding historic information which will advance his cause. The fact that we don't agree that is adequate information, and are not interested in his cause, leads to communication difficulties.


Real trolls post things like "50 true facts about negro's" and sit back to watch people take the bait. Arkadian has a genuine personally held view he wants to argue, whereas trolls frequently only want to rile people.



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Postby Tuppence » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:20 am

btw I know of a well published historian who's never carried out any original research of his own he merely uses other books as evidence without checking their accuracy.


that's not a historian, that's a writer.

Actually I don't think he is trolling, in the sense of wandering about looking for a fight,


I meant trolling in the sense of posting stuff so he can sit back and laugh at the reactions with his mates on another site, not necessarily trying to stat a rowm though he's done that before too.

Great making claims, but they do have to be backed up, the onus being on the claimer, in this case we wait with baited breath.

A hunch tells me the joke has backfired though, laughing at the call for primary source seems to caste doubt on the credibility of someone purporting to be studying a history degree....whatever turns you on I guess.


It casts doubt on the liklihood for success of somebody studying history in any of it's branches, but to be fair, he did say he was just embarking on it, so maybe he has yet to be shown the way. :D


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Postby Tuppence » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:35 am

ps - have no doubt incidentally that Arkadian genuinely believes in what he's saying, however without basis it currently is.


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:02 pm

guthrie wrote:Bearing the above in mind, perhaps Arkadian would care to comment on the following quotes:


Those quotes and the mentality behind them are just sad to be honest.


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Postby guthrie » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:33 pm

Tuppence wrote:I meant trolling in the sense of posting stuff so he can sit back and laugh at the reactions with his mates on another site, not necessarily trying to stat a rowm though he's done that before too.


I'm afraid in that case a quarter of posters on LH are trolls...



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Postby Tuppence » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:45 pm

I'm afraid in that case a quarter of posters on LH are trolls...


and do you see me disagreeing with that?


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Postby Colin MacDonald » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:58 am

zauberdachs wrote:the argument that "I'm being rude because someone else was rude to me first" is a little bit ... well ... 8 year old children in the play ground?


Indeed it is. However, let's be clear that it's Arkadian's argument (or at least the corollary of it). Bear in mind that I'm showing him the respect of remembering his previous statements, and treating them and him seriously.

Speaking of which, there should be no need to contact his correspondants, if he'd scan and post the original correspondance as he offered to do. I'd really like to see it.



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Postby Fox » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:58 am

Tuppence wrote:
I'm afraid in that case a quarter of posters on LH are trolls...


and do you see me disagreeing with that?


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Postby guthrie » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:21 pm

I've had a reply!
What a nice chap.
I shall quote the relevant bits in Italics:

I am very poorly informed on the subject of Scottish and or Highland dress before the 17th century- from when, of coure, we have reasonably good pictorial evidence. I'm not sure where I have suggested anything as to how Wallace's men were clad at Stirling Bridge in 1297. Contemporary accounts from the 1130's stress unarmoured condition of the Scots in battle- though we must assume that the cavalry had conventional armour and men who serves with horse and haubergel [sic?] clearly had armoured protection.
In feudal Britan (1956), page 124 I was citing a continental cmomentator describing a Scottish crusading contingent.


He then suggests applying to the Royal Museum of Scotland for more information.

How interesting. So Prof Barrow isn't as much of an expert on circa 1300 Scots clothing as people would like to think.



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Postby Alan_F » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:36 am

So what do you have to say to that Arkadian?


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Postby Colin MacDonald » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:20 am

Cheers, guthrie.

Arkadian, does the description of cognitive dissonance strike any chords with you? Axiomatically, it probably won't.

Now I'd really like to see those copies of the original correspondance.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:48 am

sh**! You mean he's part of a UFO worshipping death cult as well as being an expert on Scotish clothing of the 12th/13th century!


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Postby Colin MacDonald » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:32 pm

I think that all True Scots know that the woad pattern that Prince William the Bruce daubed himself with at Prestonpans was handed down from the Founders of Pictland, Hamish and Z'tweelzoop.



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Postby StaffordCleggy » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:37 pm

I think the 'hostility' that Arkadian has felt was directed towards him is, in a large part, because of his previous posts about Bannockburn & his political leanings towards his idea of Scottish Independence & the whole flag burning offensiveness that we waltzed around some months ago.

I would like to see the Primary Evidence he has claimed, although i fear he is trying hard to prove an idea that suits his political persuasion & idea of Scotland's past rather than a dispassionate appraisal of evidence.


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Postby Ian Macintyre » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:15 pm

So being in favour of Scottish Independence is "offensive" :?:

Perhaps you may wish to re-write your sentence old bean. Simply being a nationalist does not mean that one is offensive. Nor that you have to have a romanticised view of our history.

I'm very offensive but its not because of my views on independence.


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