Scots DID wear KILTS.. PRE-1600 by a long way

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Nigel
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Postby Nigel » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:48 am

Hi Ben

sorry those I think of as annoying I treat as such

Those I ahve respect for I use their names


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby nerf herder » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:40 pm

Hang on now, let's be objective about this.

type of material - not given
any idea of Length/width of material - not given
Method of wear/support/fastening of material - not given
Colours/patterns - not given

covering at the front and back, open at the sides, worn by Scots "presumably Highlanders"

It IS a plaid kilt!!!!! belted McHalfords Tartan, obviously. It IS!!!!!! How did we all miss it? It's all become so clear now!!!!

:roll:

Nerfy


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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:59 pm

Incidentally Arcadian, why did you not mention this extract from the same title? ;)

From: "An Antidote to the English" by Norman MacDougall ISBN 1862321450 page 53

Source: Abbot Samson of Bury 1159-60

"to ... reach Rome safely Samson pretended to be a Scot - that is by wearing Scottish dress and 'behaving like a Scot.' This behaviour consisted of brandishing a stick as though it were a spear and using threatening language 'as Scotsmen do.' ... "his clothing, though tattered, included breeches and boots, as well as old slippers 'which I carried over my shoulders in the Scottish Manner'."


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Postby Attilla the Bun » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:16 pm

zauberdachs wrote:Whichever way you translate it, it doesn't look like good evidence for a plaid. I wouldn't traditionally have described a plaid as "rough, shaggy or bristly" however this calls to mind the hood/poncho they found on the Isles with the fancy shaggy edging? The one in the National Museum? Does anyone have a name/picture?


Are you thinking of the Orkney Hood? That is much, much earlier, 600-ish AD at the latest (C14) and not shaggy - the edging is fringed
http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/orkneyhood.htm
www.archaeologyonline.org/Documents/TheOrkneyHood.pdf


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Postby guthrie » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:18 pm

How does this sound:

Dear Professor barrow,
some friends and I were having a discussion online with another group of people about when kilts (belted plaids) were first worn. We can only find information that they were used in the 16th century, and the academic position is that they likely came about in the late 14th/ early 15th century due to economic and other changes. However, the other group say that kilts were worn long beforehand, and provide some period references which we do not think describe kilts. It is also claimed that you yourself think that the Scots wore kilts at the battle of Stirling Bridge. Do you agree with this? If so, do you have further information on the topic to prove this beyond reasonable doubt?
yours sincerely.



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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:20 pm

zauberdachs wrote:"to ... reach Rome safely Samson pretended to be a Scot - that is by wearing Scottish dress and 'behaving like a Scot.' This behaviour consisted of brandishing a stick as though it were a spear and using threatening language 'as Scotsmen do.' ... "his clothing, though tattered, included breeches and boots, as well as old slippers 'which I carried over my shoulders in the Scottish Manner'."


A tradition still seen on GNER Edinburgh to King's Cross trains daily! :)


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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:13 pm

Attilla the Bun wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:Whichever way you translate it, it doesn't look like good evidence for a plaid. I wouldn't traditionally have described a plaid as "rough, shaggy or bristly" however this calls to mind the hood/poncho they found on the Isles with the fancy shaggy edging? The one in the National Museum? Does anyone have a name/picture?


Are you thinking of the Orkney Hood? That is much, much earlier, 600-ish AD at the latest (C14) and not shaggy - the edging is fringed
http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/orkneyhood.htm
www.archaeologyonline.org/Documents/TheOrkneyHood.pdf


Thanks. Yes I was.


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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:14 pm

guthrie wrote:How does this sound:

Dear Professor barrow,
some friends and I were having a discussion online with another group of people about when kilts (belted plaids) were first worn. We can only find information that they were used in the 16th century, and the academic position is that they likely came about in the late 14th/ early 15th century due to economic and other changes. However, the other group say that kilts were worn long beforehand, and provide some period references which we do not think describe kilts. It is also claimed that you yourself think that the Scots wore kilts at the battle of Stirling Bridge. Do you agree with this? If so, do you have further information on the topic to prove this beyond reasonable doubt?
yours sincerely.


sounds good.


Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Postby zauberdachs » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:22 pm

Colin MacDonald wrote:The root cuneo refers to wedge shaped, with doesn't even seem sensible in this context. Any ideas?


This Irish chap, second from the left has a wedge shaped opening on his leine that exposes his legs a little more...
Attachments
350px-Durer-Irish-16thC.jpg


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Postby Attilla the Bun » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:51 pm

cheeky


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Postby StaffordCleggy » Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:39 pm

<sits down, pulls up chair & opens a beer...> :wink:


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Postby Alan_F » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:42 pm

Arkadian wrote:Prof Barrow is a Prof Emeritus, thus retired but does consult now and then.


Erm, yes?

He's an emeritus professor, but from what I know, he's not a costume historian.

i am getting the sources. it's takign some hunting but i am doing it
oh, and btw this "laddie" is in his thirties......


Is that because it doesn't exist?

why is it there's always the "let's slagg off the guy with a differing view" sentiment in here with few exceptions?
guys let's try to keep it clean eh?


No, there's the point of view of "Slag off the guy who tells us we're all wrong and he's right even though we can give sources to back up what we say and he can't"


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Postby Alan_F » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:43 pm

zauberdachs wrote:
guthrie wrote:How does this sound:

Dear Professor barrow,
some friends and I were having a discussion online with another group of people about when kilts (belted plaids) were first worn. We can only find information that they were used in the 16th century, and the academic position is that they likely came about in the late 14th/ early 15th century due to economic and other changes. However, the other group say that kilts were worn long beforehand, and provide some period references which we do not think describe kilts. It is also claimed that you yourself think that the Scots wore kilts at the battle of Stirling Bridge. Do you agree with this? If so, do you have further information on the topic to prove this beyond reasonable doubt?
yours sincerely.


sounds good.



I'll go with that.


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Postby guthrie » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:53 pm

OK, I'll post it tommorrow then, to the Buccleuch street address.



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Postby Colin MacDonald » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:49 pm

zauberdachs wrote:"to ... reach Rome safely Samson pretended to be a Scot - that is by wearing Scottish dress and 'behaving like a Scot.' This behaviour consisted of brandishing a stick as though it were a spear and using threatening language 'as Scotsmen do.' ... "his clothing, though tattered, included breeches and boots, as well as old slippers 'which I carried over my shoulders in the Scottish Manner'."


Ooh, do you have that in the original Klingon^W Latin?

If that's an unambiguous translation, then it rather implies that "crure intecto" should be interpreted as "bare footed" rather than "bare legged".



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Postby Arkadian » Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:34 pm

good lord. the hostility is unbelieveable here!....LOL
i am ot here to have you like me, or even win you over but to debate, not be childish and insulting. i thought this would have been sorted out after last time.
if you wish to be spoken to with respect then " do unto others" ladies and gentlemen ...
i am being thorough in checking the source basically and have some one else also helping me in thsi endeavour.
oh and btw the way, yet another person who is helping me IS an expert in textiles.
FYI i start a degree course in Scottish history, Scottish Studies and medievil history in February so when i come accross things of interst and relevenace i may eb over now and then for an debate on items of interest. this si not to say to get the urine extracted catheter style or be talked bown to by someone who i could, if i wished to call names but seing as how i a 37 and he is seemingly only a laddie in his twenties i shall let it slip like a ruffians grip..LOL

Arkadian
p.s. "The Orkney Hood" sounds like a comic book hero..LOL
The Orkney Hood....here to save the day with a fine islay malt!



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Postby Alan_F » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:23 am

Arkadian wrote:oh and btw the way, yet another person who is helping me IS an expert in textiles.


And that would be?

FYI i start a degree course in Scottish history, Scottish Studies and medievil history in February so when i come accross things of interst and relevenace i may eb over now and then for an debate on items of interest. this si not to say to get the urine extracted catheter style or be talked bown to by someone who i could, if i wished to call names but seing as how i a 37 and he is seemingly only a laddie in his twenties i shall let it slip like a ruffians grip..LOL


Oh good for you. You're starting a course that many of us have already done. But seeing as you're quick to rubbish what we know, why are you telling us? And besides, why do a course if you can make statements that the Scots have always worn kilts? Or are you actually doing some research?


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Postby Fox » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:28 am

Firstly let me declare my colours.

I'm an Englishman, a bog-hopping fenlander as it happens, and to my knowledge while I have some Welsh blood, I have none Scots.

I couldn't give a monkeys about kilts, historical or otherwise, except as a modern fashionable garment that let's the ladies see my legs and gets the wind around my particulars; to that end my kilts are American or copies thereof [totally shocking isn't it]. I have no preference for tartan of any sort, nor do I have anything against it.

Arkadian, about every two or three years we have this debate.

Someone wheels out a combination of incorrect or out of context evidence, and mentions some references that they don't have to hand and tries to justify an early medieval, tartan plaid.

Some people, like Alan, have made it there life's work to batter back these spurious claims. Frankly how he keeps up the rage I have no idea.

If you're going to do a history degree then you'll have to understand how to analyise evidence in context and present it in a coherent and complete way. Those skills will help you present an argument here, a land [quite correctly, BTB] of pendants and sophists.

I wish you the best of luck, I would enjoy nothing more than the look on certain people's faces if you were able to make a convincing case.

I have to say however, I think you're out of luck. I think the evidence you want just doesn't exist [because I don't think it's true].



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:15 am

"The Irish chap second from left..." Hey leave us out of it we never claimed to wear Tartan anyway! (Though I do look damn good in a kilt meself, drives the wife wild so it does.) And anyway uncle Seamus was feeling a little under the sorts having had a wee bit too much of the pure when that picture was taken. Normally he's in blue overalls and wellies with a hunter on his head.


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Postby Attilla the Bun » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:50 am

Arkadian wrote:"The Orkney Hood" sounds like a comic book hero

:D

Shhh, or the BBC will be making the series, and Mc Halfords will be the least of it....


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Postby Colin MacDonald » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:04 pm

Arkadian wrote:good lord. the hostility is unbelieveable here!


Your very first post on this forum was an EMPHATIC assertion based on some 'unquestionable' Authorities that everything that we portray at Bannockburn-era events is inaccurate. It came across - unintentionally, I am sure - as rather rude. To my recollection, you have never even acknowledged that you might have caused offence by belitteling ("lolling" at) our careful research and recreations, let alone apologised for it.

You then went on to accuse us, en masse, of lacking the copurage[sic] to support your political cause, discounting the possibility that we may just be apathetic towards it.

In light of that, I actually think that we have been relatively polite.


i am ot here to have you like me, or even win you over but to debate


Super, let's do that.

Do you have any primary sources that we haven't seen and analysed many times already? I actually hope so, but we haven't seen any so far.

You previously offered to scan and post the actual letters that you received from various Appealing Authorities. I'd love to see what they actually said, in their own words.

How's your research paper coming along?


if you wish to be spoken to with respect then " do unto others"


I think you've received more respect than your showed us in your first post.

Historical research, as I hope you'll find when you study it academically, involves starting from a tabula rasa and working forwards from the extant sources, in as conservative and non-interpretive way as possible. That means avoiding appealing but unsubstantiated interpretations like early medieval belted plaids, because there is no source that describes them in a way that can't be more plausibly be interpreted as describing a simple cloak/brat or mantle.

If you believe differently, then can you please cite the primary sources that led you to that conclusion, and explain why it's more reasonable interpret them in a way that implies a belted plaid than a cloak/brat or mantle?



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Postby Arkadian » Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:58 pm

AS i said i am working on the sources and will have them soon.
Arkadian



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Postby Tuppence » Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:01 pm

to come back to this again....

when researching clothing / costume it's a mistake to start from the point of view of trying to prove something existed (been there and done that).

the only productive way is to start with an open mind and draw your conclusions from the evidence.

and yes, I research the history of clothing for a living.



Nigel, it's because there are no sources: various historians have looked at this and found nothing to support it.


and obviously, without soures there can't be any real proof either way. there can be opinion, but it's evidence that's the life blood of research, not opinion.

opinion means nothing here.

Quote:
why is it there's always the "let's slagg off the guy with a differing view" sentiment in here with few exceptions?
guys let's try to keep it clean eh?



No, there's the point of view of "Slag off the guy who tells us we're all wrong and he's right even though we can give sources to back up what we say and he can't"
_________________


precisely.

it's not slag off the guy whose opinion is different - evidence can be read / perceived in many, many, many different ways.

but you appear to have no evidence at the current time.

a hunt for evidence does not mean you have any, and no real opinion can be formed without evidence, after the hunt has been completed.


good lord. the hostility is unbelieveable here!....


funny, I think it's all been very polite. if we wanted to be hostile you'd know about it pretty sharpish.

that most of us disagree with you does not make for hostility.


oh and btw the way, yet another person who is helping me IS an expert in textiles.


and an expert in textiles does not make an expert in clothing / costume.

name?

FYI i start a degree course in Scottish history, Scottish Studies and medievil history


which has very, very little to do with the history of costume, being a completely different discipline.


be talked bown to by someone who i could, if i wished to call names but seing as how i a 37 and he is seemingly only a laddie in his twenties i shall let it slip like a ruffians grip..LOL


the mention of his age at mid twenties was sarcasm.

he's older than you - not that that really has to do with anything.

he was talking down to you because, despite promise after promise of primary source evidence, you have yet to produce n iota of said evidence.

nobody will take you seriously until you do, as no doubt you will learn.


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Postby Neil of Ormsheim » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:54 pm

Arkadian, can I suggest that you take the standard scientific approach to this.
1. Come up with a theory. (e.g. the belted great plaid existed as a common garment in the early 1300s)
2. Attempt to disprove it.
3. Attempt to disprove it again.
4. And again.
5. Yet again.
6. etc.
7. etc.
If, at any any point beyond one you succeed, the theory is dead in the water. If you, or any other researches in the field CANNOT disprove at any time, then it may start to be accepted as a possibility. The more numerous failures to disprove any theory, the strongewr it becomes.

This is why Darwins theory of evolution is still only a theory, and why the big bang is still only a theory. It is incredibly difficult to actually PROVE anything. (I may just be a figment of a truely deranged imagination - can you prove I'm not?)


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Postby guthrie » Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 pm

Neil, I don't think that can work in this case. For starters, you cannot prove a negative. We cannot prove that great kilts were not worn at that time, that is a fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Hence trying to disprove that the belted plaid existed circa 1300 is not possible.
You would be better putting it this way:

Hypothesis- the belted plaid existed circa 1300.

evidence gathered- nil by our standard, but anyway...

predictions from combining evidence with hypothesis- e.g. that you will find carvings on gravestones, or a body will be found that carbon dates to the correct time, and wears a plaid.

In one sense he is already doing this, by combing the literature for possible evidence for his hypothesis.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:57 pm

What is the big deal anyway? I have benn led to understand, by various means, that the kilt (as it is now known) was an 18th century adaption of a pretty outdated form of clothing worn by one section of the scotish people, namely the plaid. I have also been led to understand that the greater bulk of "ancient" tartans were invented by Anglo-Scotish Victorians. This also seems to be the concensus here. so what angle are you trying to prove Arkadaian? I ask this because there was a definite political angle to your last posting(s). Would a pre-1300 tartan make you more Scotish? I mean the colour green has for long been associated with Irish Nationalism, even to the point that like the Highland dress it was outlawed for a while, but I'm pretty sure that the Irish didn't invent it.


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Postby Tuppence » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:20 pm

or should I be evil and point out that the oldest cloth that's been called a tartan (though strictly in the modern sense it's not) is from northumbria, so actually you could argur that tartans aren't really scottish at all.


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Postby craig1459 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:44 pm

How old is that 2d?


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Postby Tuppence » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 pm

forget the exact date without looking up, but lateish roman


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Postby Nigel » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:17 pm

Arkadian wrote:good lord. the hostility is unbelieveable here!....LOL
i am ot here to have you like me, or even win you over but to debate, not be childish and insulting. i thought this would have been sorted out after last time.
if you wish to be spoken to with respect then " do unto others" ladies and gentlemen ...
i am being thorough in checking the source basically and have some one else also helping me in thsi endeavour.
oh and btw the way, yet another person who is helping me IS an expert in textiles.
FYI i start a degree course in Scottish history, Scottish Studies and medievil history in February so when i come accross things of interst and relevenace i may eb over now and then for an debate on items of interest. this si not to say to get the urine extracted catheter style or be talked bown to by someone who i could, if i wished to call names but seing as how i a 37 and he is seemingly only a laddie in his twenties i shall let it slip like a ruffians grip..LOL

Arkadian
p.s. "The Orkney Hood" sounds like a comic book hero..LOL
The Orkney Hood....here to save the day with a fine islay malt!



Hostility if you cannot ahndle this I pity you

I note you start a d=gree superb let me know when /if you finsih it then you may be caapble of understanding the sue of evidence and context but I somehow doubt you will. Its simply mazing who they are allwing into universities these days I mean they even let Mr F in :D (no offence Alan)Then again you dont saya t which university youa re studying which is interesting given theya ppear to be sprouting up left right and centre

Good luck though from somebody who is older than you and given your lack of ability to construct an arguement I suspect you will need it


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.


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