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House of De Clifford
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Postby House of De Clifford » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:40 am

Actually, we have been asked so many time "can you get wolf?"
the answer has always been no ! however, we have been allowed to import 10 timber wolf per year. These will be for sale to groups or individuals who are serious about their authenticity and not for general sale.
Anyone interested in a wolf pelt would have to join the list and wait their turn. They come with full paperwork and will be huge ! They will also come with a huge price tag !
dave.


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m300572
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Postby m300572 » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:28 am

Dave B wrote:
m300572 wrote:'Twas useful stuff alum - used for tawing, dying, papermaking (no idea what process here) and was also apparently used as a fire retardent on thatch in towns.


You have to be a bit careful there. people get confused between Aluminium sulphite, and the various true alums (potassium alum, soda alum, etc) partly because Aluminium sulpate and potasium alum were both used as mordants. they aren't all the same material though. I'm sure a proper chemist (guthrie, help) will come along and explain.


Most of my knowledge of alum was gained when researching the works at Ravenscar some years aog so the precise chemistry is a bit hazy now - it was alum that was produced though - the works comprised a huge quarry where alum shale was dug out and burned and the remains of the works where the liquid that was obtained by pouring water through the roasted shale to leach out one compnent was processed by boiling and having either ammonia (the stale urine) or potash (from burned seaweed) added to it. There are a string of works along the Yorkshire coast, Ravenscar is the best preserved, some of the others are slowly falling into the sea as the coast erodes.


Wilkes and Liberty, Wilkes and the Forty Five

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Postby guthrie » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:45 am

Dave B wrote:
m300572 wrote:'Twas useful stuff alum - used for tawing, dying, papermaking (no idea what process here) and was also apparently used as a fire retardent on thatch in towns.


You have to be a bit careful there. people get confused between Aluminium sulphite, and the various true alums (potassium alum, soda alum, etc) partly because Aluminium sulpate and potasium alum were both used as mordants. they aren't all the same material though. I'm sure a proper chemist (guthrie, help) will come along and explain.


I don't recall that they knew of Aluminium sulphite as a definite separate compound in the medieval period, although I could be wrong. Alum is a double salt, and often has a variety of impurities to boot, and I wouldn't be surprised if people added whatever they thought would bulk it up just to eke it out a little more or fool some customers etc.

The Ravenscar alum works came about in the 16th or 17th centuries I think, long after our period.



m300572
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Postby m300572 » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:44 am

Correct about the Yorkshire Alum works, set up after Henry VIII fell out with the Pope - prior to that alum was imported under a papal monopoly on the trade, hence the need for a local source after the pope banned trading with England - the references to Ravenscar was to put my knowledge in context rather than to put the Yorkshire works up as examples of medieval alum production.


Wilkes and Liberty, Wilkes and the Forty Five

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Postby Skevmeister » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:54 am

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:How could you? Poor little furry fox friend murdered just to appease your facistic authentic needs. I don't know how you can sleep at night? Happy now?


Marcus,

I hope this is a joke.

As if it isn't I for one find this sort of toss deeply offensive; I will expact that if you feel this way about fur that you will throw away your shoes, your sword belts the straps on your armour.


ad augusta per angusta

No Hamster's, Moderators, Animals, or Re-Enactors were harmed in the making of this post.

Skev keeping it real since '86

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guthrie
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Postby guthrie » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:17 pm

m300572 wrote:Correct about the Yorkshire Alum works, set up after Henry VIII fell out with the Pope - prior to that alum was imported under a papal monopoly on the trade, hence the need for a local source after the pope banned trading with England - the references to Ravenscar was to put my knowledge in context rather than to put the Yorkshire works up as examples of medieval alum production.

Aye, and the interesting thing would be to find out when they worked out you could get alum by burning that rock there. I'll check my library tonight.



m300572
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Postby m300572 » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:05 pm

Yes, its one of these terribly obvious processes :lol: Along the lines of Here, I have a really good idea, lets quarry a huge pile of this suff, set fire to it, pour water over the burned stuff then mix the runoff with stale pee and a solution of burned seaweed then boil it all down until we get something out at the end!! I've always wondered just who the hell thought of it, or how it could be evolved accidentally - possibly in the search for the Philosophers's Stone but apart from that I can't imagine why anyone would try it out to see what happened.


Wilkes and Liberty, Wilkes and the Forty Five

guthrie
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Postby guthrie » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:21 pm

According to Arthur Raistrick in "INdustrial Archaeology", in 1595 they discovered strata near Guisborough, North Yorkshire, from which alum could be manufactured. So are you sure about Henry the 8th, due to some new excavations or other information since the 70's?

Georgius Agricola describes how to make alum by a similar process, by roasting pyrites and aluminous mixtures, but no mention of urine etc. The urine comes in in a slightly different process involving diggin gup aluminous shales and heaping htem into tanks with water over them. The water is stirred, the urine added, and the solution drawn off into a trough and then off into lead cauldrons and boiled. Adding the urine would apparently turn the aluminium sulphate into ammonia alum, which is not really what is wanted, but they seemed to think that it was necessary to drive off the vitriol. (vitriol being copper or iron sulphate)



Marcus Woodhouse
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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:08 pm

Of course it was a joke , Skev you old numpty! If something is dead then not to use it is a waste of divinely given resources. I'm with the native Americans on that one. I hope everyone else knew it was a joke? (No offense meant if it was not seen in that way.)


OSTENDE MIHI PECUNIAM!

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Postby Handbag » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:29 am

i knew it was a joke . dont worry :lol: :lol: :lol:




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