WOTR Alleigences.

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Dave B
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Post by Dave B »

So does anyone have a contempory illustration of a bend from the period, so that I can make some?

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Post by Nigel »

Nope but theres a nice reconstruction in Gerry's book
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Bil »

Check with the pennys (falk or big gay al) as they have been offering a "bends for beers" policy this season to pay those unafillated merc's to fight in their block.

As for ourselves we were raised from the local populace to fight for our "lord", he would send us off to do what ever the Bishop wanted (John Lowe) and the bishop was buddies with warwick , so we get to fight on both sides but broardly falling in with the stance of warwick!.
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Post by Colin Middleton »

Sorry to join the discussion late, but my understanding was that household men were the men who worked and lived in the household as servants. They could then be quickly and easily armed to accompany a lord to battle. I would expect all of them to wear a livery coat, which should be a part of his anual wage.

Tennants should not be wearing livery, unless their boss was breaking the rules.

Levy is probably more hit and miss too.

We portray Howards men, so only appear later in the wars and always fought for the king (they served Ted and Dicky, then swaped to Tudor when he was crowned). In erlier events we claim to be Mobry Norfolks, but I'm not certain which side they fought on. I like the idea of 'spare liveries/bends' though.
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Post by gregory23b »

There are what appear to be sahes on some of the people in the Woilfegg Hausbuch, however not in a miliotary context, but they also have badges on them, sadly my scanner is up the spout so cannnot send image.

You can have a good crack at interpreting it, unlined, (assumed decentish wool), sewn together if two colour.

Personally, as there seems to be little descriptive evidence (as yet) you have as much right to have a stab as anyone else.

A bend is just a diagonal stripe, bedns could been as cheap and easy ways of getting the colours out, no tailoring, much less material etc.

The following are merely bends in relation to stripes/strips/ribbons and decoration on clothing.

(a) (1245) Invent.St.Paul in Archaeol.50 479: Capae duae rubae cum bendis transversoriis.
(1394) Wardrobe Acc.Rich.II in Archaeol.62 507: Et j bende pro eadem gouna. c1400(?c1390) Gawain (Nero A.10) 2517: Vche burne..a baudery
k schulde haue, A bende a-belef hym aboute.
c1425(a1420) Lydg. TB (Aug A.4) 4.2213: He 3af to hem bendys fresche of red, Þat men may knowe by her manlyhed With whom þei wern with-holde.
a1425(?a1400) RRose (Htrn 409) 1079: Richesse a robe of purpur on hadde..with a bend of gold tasseled.
a1425 *Medulla (Stnh A.1.10) 28a/b: Flameum: bend of mantel or a kerchef.
c1450(?a1400) Quatref.Love (Add 31042) 458: Thire ladyse are arayede in robys ful 3are..Bendys and botonys, felettis and fare.
(1452) Will York in Sur.Soc.45 137: j coopertorii pro lecto de rubeo, cum rosis et bendes de viridi.
(1463) Will Bury in Camd.49 41: My bende for an hat of blak sylk and silvir..my bende of whit boon with smale bedys of grene.
a1500(?c1450) Merlin (Cmb Ff.3.11) 279: His clothinge was blakke fustyan with bendes on the sleues.
a1500 Syng I wold (HRL 536) 47: A strecte bende hath the hose..Thei may not, I soppose, curvare genu sine cura.

(b) c1400(?c1308) Davy Dreams (LdMisc 622) 12/31: Hij wexen out so bri3th so glem Þat shyneþ of þe sonne-bem; Of diuers coloures hij weren, Þat comen out of boþe his eren ffoure bendes alle by rewe on eiþer ere.



Have a trawl through the ME dictionary
middle english dictionary

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Post by Dave B »

Nigel wrote:Nope but theres a nice reconstruction in Gerry's book
I guess if it's in Mr Embleton's book that's good enough for me, for doing a prototype at least.

I might try doing an armload of each for our lot as a winter project. I guess I'll only need a couple of yards of each colour.
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Allan Harley
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Post by Allan Harley »

I have to agree - bends are easy, don't take up much fabric and can be used for so many occasions the perfect battle accessory _ as modelled by my lovely assistants at Blore.

The type and style of identification should reflect your status as a group and as an individual in that group - whether its just 2 pieces of cloth or some sort of field sign up to full Burgubdian silk damask liveries -
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Post by Nigel »

You git Mr H

You been looking in through the sewing room window :D
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Dave Key »

Bends

For Bends there is actually a surprising amount once you start looking. If you want a discussion on the topic there is my article :wink:

D. Key, 'whythe bendys above hyr harnys': An investigation into the 'Bend' as a part of Fifteenth Century Military Clothing', in Costume, The Journal of the Costume Society, n.37 2003.

The article is a part of a talk I gave on unit identification in 1999 so there is more information since then. However, this includes military use in illustration, cloth purchases etc. For example you should only need about a quarter of a yard of cloth.

What's interesting to me is that these were not necessarily 'quick and dirty' or only for the lowest echelons .... in London the Mercers equipped the 200 men assigned to the City Watch with bends of Fustian, with 2 swords and 2 crosses on each, whilst their Captains had embroidered Satin bends, and at Towton Edward bought crimson wool cloth for badges and bends for his "knights and squires going with the king to the conflict"


Jackets

As regards jackets being only a Household thing ... that's another of those asumptions that doesn't really stack up under close scrutiny. In 1469 John Paston III wrote to his brother,

"If I come I most do make a livery of xx gownes, which I must pick out by your advice; and as for cloth for such persons as be in that country, if it might be had there at Norwich or not I wot not, and what persons I am not remembered."

whilst at the same time Edward was ordering 100 "Jackets of blue and murrey with roses" plus 40 Jackets of Velvet and Damask alongside "certain banners, standards, cote armours [and] pensils for spears".


Hope this helps,
Cheers
Dave

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Post by gregory23b »

"What's interesting to me is that these were not necessarily 'quick and dirty' or only for the lowest echelons "

The Wolfegg Hausbuch has a couple of sashes, one with a device, worn in a non-martial context.
middle english dictionary

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Post by Dave Key »

Oops that should have been 1000 Jackets not 100

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Post by Hraefn »

1463) Will Bury in Camd.49 41: My bende for an hat of blak sylk and silvir..

Is this one of the twisted 'turbanthingys' that goes round yer lid?

Also as a man who favoured a padded jack in me fighting days I had a large St George cross front and back and a livery badge on chest and occasionally arm, easy to change to adapt for various events/battles....still got me strangled duck, flaming cartwheel and legs of man badges, s'pose I keep 'em for nostalgic reasons.

Hraefn

Ps 23b have your hands recovered from the sugar burns? Nice video BTW.

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Post by gregory23b »

"s 23b have your hands recovered from the sugar burns? Nice video BTW."

It was not a nice video, harrumph - shameful girliness, thankfully I didn't get burned as such, no blisters.

My compadre :wink: is a natural sugar boiler and handler, he has calloused hands, though from what I wont speculate :twisted:
middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

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Post by Allan Harley »

Thanks Dave,

Really interested in the idea of bends and will look at your article - thats what I like about this forum "seek and ye shall find" AND NOT JUST ONE POINT OF VIEW EITHER.

Nige - haven't been peeking just stalking :wink:
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Post by Nigel »

might not be done for November as its one of Debs' work in progress but should be i by March :D
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Tuppence »

would you quit spilling


:roll:
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Post by Bil »

:lol: We still get away with it as our "lord" was a mercer and often flouted his wealth, so sending liveried troops to war, though raised from the local populace would have been a nice extravagance, and he could have got the material at cost! :D
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Post by Chris, yclept John Barber »

Allan Harley wrote:I have to agree - bends are easy, don't take up much fabric and can be used for so many occasions the perfect battle accessory _ as modelled by my lovely assistants at Blore.
Such as:
Attachments
Bend.jpg
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Post by Allan Harley »

Thank you Chris - point well illustrated

Also as you can see, easy to badge up and looks good ; on the field, in the house, in the bar or just relaxing in the jacuzzi after the battle :P

Intend to have a number made for next season to suit the requirements of the event - Downside its easy to confuse people - and mistaken identity
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Post by zauberdachs »

cool! Ok, I want one now...
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Post by Dave B »

Allan.

If you could come up with colours for generic 'yorkist bends' and 'lancastrian bends' which would do for blore heath (and hopefully some other battles) , I could make some for our lot.
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Post by Allan Harley »

Yorkist is easier - Murrey and Blue

Lancastrian Blue and White; (Another main alternative is Red and Black - for Duke of Buckingham, & Earl of Northumberland, & Pronce of Wales


For those who are undecided - Red - Nevilles, Pastons a multitude of others
OR
Blue - lots more households

The other thing is to have felt/fabric badges that can be "interchanged" as required for each battle

How does that sound :shock:

To add to this - what about field signs - would a unit/force have some common item to identify which side they support - Like a marguerite or planta genesta?
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Post by Man from Coventry »

Finally in respect of the Lancastrian and Yorkist bends. Here are my suggestions. Lancastrian - A red & black bend, with the badge of the Prince of Wales a single white ostrich feather either on it own own or held erect by the beak of a fettered swan was worn at Blore Heath and St Albans II and possibly Tewkesbury. Murrey and Blue, possibly with a white rose/sunburst for the Yorkists.
It's quite possible that lancastrian bend referred to above may also have been used at Wakefield and Towton, they are definitely referred to before St Albans II where they were worn over their existing (lords) livery and essentially the same troops fought at all three battles. Likewise survivors of Blore may have worn it at Ludford Bridge.

Red & Black or Black & Red - depends how you wear the bend were also used as livery colours by the Talbots and Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury.

In the 1992 Blore we did exactly as Allan suggests and made up a series of Griffin badges on a black background which was then "patched" by loosely tacking it over our Stafford Livery badges. Easy to remove after the event.

From a practical point of view field signs/ or over bends would be useful, in a confused battle (such as the recent Blore) where you don't know all the groups & some are not wearing livery, it can be difficult (as no doubt it was in real life) to work out which side you were on.

However its not clear whether they were worn, or if they were, how obvious they were.

Clearly at Barnet thay can't have been that effective.
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Post by Dave Key »

With regard to 'Yorkist' bends ... don't forget the reference I mentioned earlier to Edward buying Crimson wool for Towton specifically for bends and badges for his knights & esquires at the battle... which also possibly answers the question "were they worn?" Though I'm curious why the doubt about this ?

With regard to the confusion at Barnet. Worth noting that the primary way of identifying a unit was probably neither the bend nor livery jacket, nor even the badge but the Standard (bearing the colour(s) and badge(s) of the lordship (but if you look at the Chronicle of London Henry VII had several Standards, each with diffferent designs upon them ).

Since the description of Oxford was a 'Star with streamers' and in a fog many colours appear washed out ... a rose en soleil (or even just a white rose) could easily be mistaken for the star with streamers, especially if we're talking at the point of shooting arrows at the enemy ... i.e. a flag seen at 100-200 yrds.

Cheers
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Post by Man from Coventry »

I didn't really make myself clear on this point and I confused two points in my last post - field signs and bends.

In respect of field signs I am not aware of them being referred to and by implication used during the wars of the roses, though as an old idea it was quite possible that they were.

I'm not doubting that bends were worn - I think they were and believe this is clear from my early postings on this topic. They are specifically mentioned for certain battles as being worn as a uniform bend over the livery for the whole army.

Whether this was general for all battles I can't say. I am not aware of evidence that there was a Lancastrian/Neville bend for example at Barnet and this may have been a factor in the confusion of Barnet, along with the issue of standards. It may also have been that if bends were worn they were not sufficiently prominent, in relation to the livery badges in the weather conditions to be an effective identifier.
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Post by gregory23b »

I think there are too many bends in WOTR reenactment :twisted: :twisted:

<joke!!!!>



Nice one Alan btw.

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Post by Allan Harley »

No you mean warped :roll:

Thank you - all ideas, suggestions improvements gratefully received - I would like for large scale events to be as ggod for those watching as they regularly are for those taking part.

(Caltrops pits how do I get them passed by Health & Safety?)
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Post by Sophia »

Allan Harley wrote:(Caltrops pits how do I get them passed by Health & Safety?)
Make them out of latex or silicone - silicone is probably better as there is no allergy risk :twisted:
aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

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Post by Alice the Huswyf »

Properley shaped, my shortbread (especially the everything-free version)should mimic forged iron well and still satisfy H&S enough....
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Post by Dave Key »

Before getting into the subject of identification and uniformity of appearance I think it worth considering exactly how a C15th English force would be arrayed for battle. If we accept most of the Chronicles' descriptions, then the forces would be drawn up into 3 'battles'. Yes there were variations to this (Edward's 200 'speres' being an example) but the broad principle of 3 troop masses seems to have been a standard.

If you accept 3 big blocks of combatants facting another 3 big blocks of combatants, broadly controlled by the use of standards and trumpets to give orders then the actual chance of becoming confused as to who the opposition was would be fairly small. In a modern 're-enactment battle' where numbers are smaller and less cohesive ... the chance of confusion is far greater. Now, I haven't been to a WotR display for a while so please excuse me if I'm being unfair ... but how often do people actually form up in 3 battles per side ?

What makes Barnet interesting is that a) they did (reputedly) get confused and b) the reason was confusion over the badge, specifically the badge ... no mention of where the badge was, or of colours etc.

However, Barnet was exceptional in so much as the Lancastrian wing defeated their Yorkist opponents and then returned to the fray, in the mist and from the direction that the Yorkist force would be expected ... so they were shot at (probably at c.200 yrds) so a small badge on a Livery/bend would be fairly academic ... I don't doubt they looked for the badge on the flag and made a reasonable assumption ... it just happened to be the wrong one!

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