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Katherine Swynford
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| Gill | Thu Jan 11 2001 14:52:34 |
| Any information on Katherine,third wife of John of Gaunt and ancestress of both the Tudor and Stuart lines wanted.Also sister-in-law to Chaucer ( The Canterbury Tales). |
| Leah | Thu Jun 7 2001 18:08:37 |
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Have you read Anya Seton's brilliant book "Katherine"? It has to be my favourite book of all time! The only information I know about Katherine, that is not included in the book, is that she is buried in Lincoln Cathedral - my home town :o) - along with her daughter by John of Gaunt. The place where she lived with Hugh Swynford, and where (reputedly) her first child was born, is also nearby, and, as far as I know, no longer stands. I have been there though, and as I remember the chapel/church still stands (at least in part). Leah |
| JADE WOOD | Wed Jun 27 2001 22:39:18 |
| hiya, a friend of mine on the internet, is also doing research into kathy and John GAUNT.. so it rung a bell, if you mail me your e mails, I will gladly forward them onto her, she is at present writing a historical novel, that includes them too..i recently visited my nearby Glos cathedral, and took some photos there, to send to her..My husband and I take bl and white photos, and develop them ourselves! whilst in the cloisters, i felt a ghostly hand touch my arm! |
| Leah | Thu Jun 28 2001 09:07:05 |
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Hi Jade, It would be brilliant if you could forward my e-mail address to your friend - I'm always eager to know more about historical figures, but especially ones with such a close relationship with my home town! =) My e-mail address is leah.kw@ntlworld.com Thanks =) |
| Nikki | Thu Nov 8 2001 12:39:49 |
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To Jade and Leah Just came across this website accidentaly and thought you may be interested to know that in about 1976/77 as a child I visited Kettlethorpe with my parents as my mother had a fascination about Katherine Swynford. I remember her going into an old cottage and enquiring as to where the hall was and she was in there for quite a while. When she came out she disappeared up a lane with an old lady and who showed her where the hall was or is, (I'm not sure which). I know she found a great deal of satisfaction from finding the place where Katherine had lived that day and afterwards we went on to Lincoln Cathedral to see Katherines tomb. I remember that the same thing happened to my mother in Lincoln Cathedral as happened to Jade in Gloucester whilst she was stood looking at the tomb, she said she felt someone touch her arm. Only being about 9 or 10 at the time I think I remember it so clearly as it scared me and gave me the shudders. My mother died last year so unfortunately I cannot tell you what she actually found out in Kettlethorpe that day but I know it made her day. I have a heavy marble statue that she brought from Lincoln that day of Katherine and John that I will treasure, I remember she hung it on the wall in the living room for a while but everyone thought she had gone religious so she took it down. I also have her original hard backed copy of Anya Seton's Katherine published in 1954. It says in the back of the book that Katherine was buried in Lincoln Cathedral because her son Henry Beaufort had become bishop there. Anyway thought this may interest you both. |
| Leah | Thu Nov 8 2001 20:08:47 |
| That's really interesting, Nikki! My fascination with Katherine comes from my mum too (I also have her original copy of the book, along with a new one of my own which I bought because the original version is so well-read!), and I was taken to visit Kettlethorpe when I was around about 15/16 I would guess (so about 4 years ago). I've been to see her tomb in the cathedral several times, and left a carnation there the last time I visited (her supposed birthday). I've never felt anything "supernatural", but in some ways I would love to! I feel so close to the whole story while I'm there - it's all terribly romantic :o) |
| jade | Sat Nov 10 2001 21:47:47 |
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thanks, but Ive lost the ladies email, all i can remember is she lives in cornwall! I went to Tewkesbury Abbey the other day, Im sure I saw Sir... Gaunt, in a tomb there, with the lady catherine, elsewhere! |
| JADE | Sat Nov 10 2001 21:50:47 |
| Yoiu said Lincoln cathedral, that is a co-incidence, one of my ancesotrs is buried there! a CLEMENTS WOOD... just been looking up our family tree,it said the first descendant is buried in lincoln abbey!!! |
| JADE | Sat Nov 10 2001 21:58:38 |
| I need someone to do some sewing for me, anyone any ideas?I have a medieaval robe, with no lining or hood, and I want to make it bigger and attach some kind of a fastener, or rope to it, my sewing machine, wont stretch to heavy work! im making odd items of clothing myself, out of blankets, a T shape, and seperate gauntlets like arms, they arent attached to the main item, I think Ive re-invented the same pattern, that the chain armour was made from!all i need now, is to find a craftsman with some strips of leather, I need also to make a hat, I have many feathers here, Im thinking of making a nativeamerican indian cheifs headress!! out of british crow and magpie and ducks feathers!!all i need now is owl and raven, and buzzards! and also Im searching for some cured lambskins, to make an long lambskin, furry robe, like the cavemen wore! DONT ASK WHY! |
| Judy Perry | Tue Jan 8 2002 22:31:41 |
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To all: I have spent some 20 years researching Katherine, the Roets, Chaucers & Swynfords. If anyone wants any info, please email me. Also, if you want to collaborate, please email me as well :D |
| Fenella Whittaker | Wed Jan 9 2002 11:19:12 |
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FAO Judy Perry Dear Judy, I am embarking on research about Katherine Swynford and am currently compiling a list of primary sources at depositaries in the UK. I note you mention collaborating - are you hoping to collate your information into a book? |
| Judy Perry | Wed Jan 9 2002 13:29:49 |
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Dear Fanella, Yes, that has always been my hope ;-) A long series of articles, at the least. Any propositions? I have a bibliography (primary, secondary, tertiary) that badly needs retyping (was last done on a Commodore-64 computer, which tells you how long I've been at it!) and am in the process of putting all my note cards on computer into a database for quick-reference purposes. As I said, I've been at this for more than 20 years and would really like to do something with it! Let me know... |
| Fenella Whittaker | Thu Jan 10 2002 17:09:29 |
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Hello Judy, I think one of the areas that particularly interests me is the myths that have grown surrounding Katherine and John of Gaunt and I am keen to carry out research which concentrates on the primary evidence about their affair and subsequent marriage. Reading around the subject has thrown up all sorts of interesting ideas/beliefs. I have read supposition that John of Gaunt fathered Thomas Swynford, that Gaunt arranged the marriage with Hugh, after he had already started an affair with Katherine, (thus acting as a "smoke screen" for their relationship), and even that Gaunt fathered Philippa Roet's son not Chaucer ! There is also mention of a second Swynford daughter, Dorothy, but I am wondering if this is just confusion by researchers with Thomas Swynford and Jane Crophill's daughter? But apart from the more intriguing rumours I am interested in the extent of Katherine's influence at court and how her position as mistress was viewed. I am also interested in her life in Lincolnshire. Some of the topics I am interested in are: The legitimation of the Beaufort children (the Act of Parliament 1397) – the influence of Gaunt and Katherine on Richard II The perception of the role of the mistress in the fourteenth century court Katherine’s achievements at Kettlethorpe. Property and money bequeathed to the Swynfords and Chaucers by Gaunt during his relationship with Katherine As you can see varied topics but at the moment I am just trying to research into what sources are available and will develop ideas from there ! To read around the subject I have obtained a copy of the edited John of Gaunt's Registers and am waiting to receive a copy of Anthony Goodman's "Katherine Swynford" (1994). I first read about Katherine in Anya Seton's book. I think this is how most people start a fascination with her and John of Gaunt, but I would like to get away from the historical fantasy and try and put together some historical fact ! I am only just starting out so probably couldn't add anything to the great deal of research you have carried out but I hope you do manage to get something collated as the rest of us enthusiasts will be fascinated ! Fenella. |
| Judy Perry | Thu Jan 10 2002 19:26:45 |
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Hi Fanella, Frankly, I'm with you on the Dorothy thing. I've found ZERO references to her in any contemporary records thus far. She's not mentioned in Gaunt's will, I found no mention of a bequest in Katheryn's (altho' I've *yet* to actually obtain a copy/transcription of Katheryn's will)... In subsequent public records on Swynford family holdings from Thomas to his son Thomas and son William by second wife, NO Dorothy. The best I've been able to come up with is that perhaps REG Cole in his "Manor and Rectory of Kettlethorpe" (title is perhaps incorrect -- I'm writing this from memory) mentions her but is I believe not contemporary to Katheryn and is generally unflattering (don't have this one either but am working to obtain it -- my comments here are based upon what I gleaned in a travel forum from people who've visited Kettlethorpe and who have obtained Cole's work). I DO, however, think that Hugh and Katheryn had a second daughter named Margaret who eventually became abbess at Barking Abbey and who was 1 of 2 novitiates added by Richard II at his accession by royal privilege -- the other one was Agnes (?) Chaucer, Geoffrey Chaucer & Philippa Roet's daughter. In I believe the records of the borough of Leicestershire there is some indication that Katheryn was well-regarded there regarding exerting political influence; ditto for her work on repairing the Fosse Dyke, an important water thoroughfare. Certainly she was well regarded, if not beloved, by Henry IV who refers to her in grants as 'The King's Mother'. As for Kettlethorpe, the inquisition post mortem for I belive Thomas father of Hugh indicates that the family holdings at both Coleby and Kettlethorpe could charitably be described as decrepit at best. Katheryn was granted royal permission (Richard II or Gaunt) to cut down trees for necessary improvements that I believe were also made to manors at Grantham and another place whose name escapes me at present. As for Gaunt's grants and will, I suspect you have already pored through Syney Armitage-Smith's biography. If not, it provides a treasure trove of sources to pore through. I have already a few unpublished mini-papers on the topics of Gaunt supposedly fathering everybody under the sun -- Martin Ruud and another fellow did two exhaustive papers on the paternity of Thomas Chaucer based upon Thomas Swynford's bid to supposedly recover lands owed his mother in Hainault but this is complicated by the position held by Margaret Galway that Philippa and Katheryn had a brother (Thomas? I don't recall now -- it's been many years since I've researched this actively) who was in Margaret of Bavaria's service in Hainault along with his father as well as another sister Isabell who became Channoness at Waudru. The Roet brother may have had a daughter also named Isabell who marries a a Thomas Carrew -- this I found in a visitation of some church or other and as recorded on what is probably a now-destroyed monumental brass. Anyway, my personal opinion is that the theories of Gaunt fathering Agnes Chaucer, Thomas Chaucer, and one or more of the Swynfords is simply bonkers. For one thing, the church definitely considered this incestuous and is on record for burning people for the offence. If it had indeed been well-known as is often suggested, Gaunt would have been one incredibly crispy critter for it. I was somewhat disappointed in reading Goodman's book. Perhaps I expected more or too much. I don't think I learned anything I didn't already know. This is not to cast aspersion on his scholarship merely to say that I was looking for greater details. If you'd like to collaborate, pick an area and let's run with it! Do you want to start with Lecherous Lancaster? ;-) Judy |
| Jenn | Thu Jan 31 2002 12:46:21 |
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Hi I have also undertaken some academic research on Katherine. An article on her that I have written will be published in the May issue of History Today. Her will is not extant, or at least is not meant to be so if someone finds a copy I would be extremmely interested. Jenn |
| Judy | Thu Jan 31 2002 22:35:00 |
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What, no tantalizing teasers or trailers? You've no doubt found references to some of her bequests, such as her Chantry -- in John Hooper Harvey's "Catherine Swynford's Chantry"... Judy |
| Christine | Fri Feb 1 2002 03:10:27 |
| I have just finished "Katherine" by Anya Seton for my book club. Everyone is very excited about this book and loved reading it. I am trying to find out more information about Katherine, Hugh, John, etc. My first question is anyone knows, is how is the death of Hugh documented? Did he die in France after battle, etc. I can't find any information on poor Hugh, except that he was married to Katherine. Also any facts in the book that people think are false? Thanks for your help. |
| Sandra | Fri Feb 1 2002 13:02:07 |
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It's nice to read all the messages about Katherine. I live quite near to Lincoln and Kettlethorpe and intend when the weather is better to go over and take photos and have a good look around. Any information you can e-mail to me will be greatly appreciated. The book has also fascinated me since I first read it in my teens (now late 40's!)and as I will soon have more time on my hands I am going to do some research on various historical figures. |
| Jenn | Fri Feb 1 2002 13:10:37 |
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Hi Judy Yes, I read Harvey's article - not much info on what KS herself wanted which is why it's so annoying that her testament is not extant! You'll just have to wait and see with regard to the article in History Today (if I up the sales they might pay me more!!). Really, it's less biography and more deconstruction of how history has portrayed her, plus a little on how she may have tried to promote an identity of her own making. With regard to how many facts are incorrect in the novel - where would one start! On the whole it's not bad but it never did proclaim itself as 'history'. Main areas of distorted fact are Katherine's upbringing, the whole murder in France, Katherine's withdrawal after the Peasant's Revolt to go on pilgrimage. However, I think that it can be taken as read that the romance and the love was real - it is an unprecedented relationship. Jenn |
| Judy | Fri Feb 1 2002 19:04:59 |
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Hi Jenn, On the whole, as long as you understand that it IS a novel, the historical inaccuracies (or, rather, poetic license on the unknown) aren't too irritating. She did do a prodigious amount of research for the genre -- most, maybe with the exception of Nora Lofts (sp?) don't even bother. Now for a selfish request -- how does one even go about trying to get this stuff published? I've got a bunch of stuff that I'd like to see aired if for no other reason than to stimulate current discussion as well as not feeling like I've wasted the last 20-odd years of my spare time ;-) Not trying to be c ompetitive here, just would like to see the whole topic revisited. It largely appears to be a 'closed subject' as far as many Chaucerians are concerned. Any ideas? Judy |
| Jenn | Fri Feb 1 2002 20:47:29 |
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Hi Judy I'm actually very lucky re the publication of my work. My university entered my dissertation on KS for the Royal Historical Society/History Today prize for undergraduate dissertation of the year. Part of the prize is publication of a (very) abridged version. History Today tend to commission writers rather than take things on spec but maybe after the publication of my article you could send some drafts in to HT with the suggestion of doing a follow- up? There is a wider media interest - as a result of the prize I have been approached by both publishers and TV companies. From the sounds of it you have been at it a very long time and will therefore have probably come across information that I was unable to find in the 6 months I spent. In this respect I'm sure that someone would be interested in your work. Perhaps if the TV thing comes off you could be a researcher!! There was a definate 'oooh' when the title of my dissertation (Missing from History: A Reinstatement of Katherine Swynford's Identity) was announced at the award ceremony, indicative of just how popular she is. Jenn |
| Ana | Fri Feb 8 2002 06:09:49 |
| Hiya all... my mom's really into history, and she's looking for a book (biography?) called "Katherine Swynford" by Anthony Goodman. Has anyone heard of this book, or know how I could track it down for her? Any info/help is appreciated. Thanks! |
| Jenn | Fri Feb 8 2002 12:14:22 |
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Hi If you give Lincoln Tourist Info Office a call they can point you in the direction of a local bookshop that stocks it and will post copies out. It's not really a book, more a phamplet at about 6,000 words long. Has useful links to other info though. |
| Judy | Fri Feb 8 2002 16:05:46 |
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Ana, I believe I ordered my copy from WHSmith which if memory serves is a UK bookseller that is online. As Jenn says, if you're looking for a meaty tome, this ain't it, but no matter because there simply isn't one. |
| Katherine | Mon Feb 18 2002 15:05:18 |
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I was named after Katherine de Roet (Swynford) and love the book Katherine by Anya Seton. I've been to her tomb and Lincoln and must go to Kettlethorpe one day. Katherine |
| Christy Davies | Tue Feb 19 2002 06:52:27 |
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I can't believe it! I had no idea that this topic was so far researched. I am extremely interested in Kathryn as I am a history major and will be writing my thesis on this in a few years. Any information would be immensely appreciated. All my best, Christy |
| Sandra | Tue Feb 19 2002 08:15:38 |
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The booklet can be obtained from Amazon.com. The UK copy is available in 4/6 weeks. How many of you are from America? Sandra |
| Christy | Tue Feb 19 2002 16:20:50 |
| What is the name of the booklet? Do you mean the compilation of sources on Kathryn? |
| Sandra | Tue Feb 19 2002 18:41:41 |
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The pamphlet "Katherine Swynford" by Anthony Goodman Sandra |
| Anne | Tue Feb 26 2002 17:01:27 |
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Hello Jenn, I was very interested in your previous e-mails concerning Katherine including, 1.The May issue of History Today (I take it this is the UK edition??)Please confirm. 2.Your Dissertation "Missing from History:A Reinstatement of Katherine Swynford's Identity."(Would it be possible to obtain a copy or purchase a copy from you?? I am a Katherine Swynford obsessive.I probably have most publications about her,originals and copies both private and public,plus lots of other information,photographs of Kettlethorpe and her Tomb etc etc. Anne |
| Judy | Tue Feb 26 2002 21:11:27 |
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Anne, Would you be willing to share with any of the rest of us? Judy |
| Jenn | Wed Feb 27 2002 13:53:13 |
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Hi Anne Yes it is the UK edition, although having said that History Today is available in the States as well. I'd be interested to know what work, published or otherwise, you have on KS. Maybe you have some gem that I've not discovered so far!! History Today may be interested in the pictures too, I was contacted a couple of days ago by the picture editor who wanted to know where she could source relevant images. With regard to my dissertation, I'm a little loathe to pass on it to people because if I do it with one it will start a precedent, but also because it is going to form the basis of my Phd thesis, and I am currently in the middle of arranging a contract with a publishing house for a book based on my thesis. However, if you would like to contact me on jlucraft@totalise.co.uk maybe we could trade info or something!! Jenn |
| Melanie | Sat Mar 2 2002 01:15:57 |
| Am nearing the end of Katherine, by Anya Seyton, loaned to me by a distant cousin. She's distant in that we are both descended from Katherine and John of Gaunt, and I am wondering if any of you are also of the same line? |
| Christy | Mon Mar 4 2002 17:52:44 |
| Yes, I am through this line as well. I was wondering this: as a beginning researcher where are some places to start looking for information on KS? |
| Michelle | Tue Mar 5 2002 03:57:06 |
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Does anyone have pictures of Katherines tomb or the remains of Kettlethorpe.I would love to see a picture of both and how they are now. I too just love the book Katherine, I must since I have seven copies. :-) Please email me any pictures you have, it would be most appriciated! Thank-you! |
| Judy | Tue Mar 5 2002 17:22:44 |
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Michelle, Unfortunately, the Lincoln Cathedral tombs of Katherine and her daughter Joan were vandalised during the Cromwell era. While the stonework remains (however the tombs themselves were re-arranged), the monumental brasses were destroyed. I believe Harvey's pamphlet (Katherine Swynford's Chantry), which is probably still available from the Cathedral, contains some sketches of the brasses but these are sketchy at best (sorry for the pun). I think that there might be an extant effigy of Joan somewhere (maybe at her husband's monument?). As for Kettlethorpe, I believe that the remains of an arched medieval entry remains but I think may have been moved; in any case, there is a photo online somewhere. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll try to have a look. Judy |
| Judy | Tue Mar 5 2002 17:29:43 |
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Hello, all Since we seem to have a few people interested in beginning research on Katherine, I am wondering if there is sufficient interest in my putting up a webpage containing some info on various printed and web sources? Maybe this could serve as a focus point for sharing scholarship and theories... If so, I will try to get something up but don't expect miracles as I have year-old twins and teach a computer science course, but let me know if you all are interested. Judy |
| Christy | Tue Mar 5 2002 18:04:41 |
| Judy~ That would be absolutely amazing! I had no idea so many other people were interested in KS! Thank you for your offer and let me know if there is anyway that I can help. It would be great to have a totally KS devoted site and message board. |
| Michelle | Wed Mar 6 2002 14:27:41 |
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Judie, thanks so much for the all the info. I've been doing searches for the tomb of Katherine for a long time and just couldn't find anything. How sad to see Kettlethorpe gone too, I did find a picture of that on the web of the gate, and the link is below. If this board doesnt allow html then the url is between the quotation marks. <a href="http://www.west-lindsey.gov.uk/Planning/Conservation/BAR%20123%20photos_1.html">Which is here.</a> I currently spend a lot of time on a reading group for the Diana Gabaldon Outlander series,where "tons" of us have read "Katherine", and immediately after reading hit the web in search of any tidbit of information on her. It would be great if there was a site for a "bunch" of links in one place. Although I don't really "know" you, I would be glad to make any graphics you may need. Thanks again! Michelle |
| Leah | Wed Mar 6 2002 18:28:13 |
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Michelle, I've just started reading the Diana Gabaldon series (just finished the first book in fact) and would be interested to get in touch with other people about the series...could you maybe give me a link for the reading group you mentioned? :o) Thanks! Leah |
| Michelle (M&M) | Thu Mar 7 2002 04:36:45 |
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Hi Leah, You just go to Lallybroch.com and theres a whole wonderful group of us (Ladies of Lallybroch) and lots of sites to visit. :-) Right now Im having an Ousted by Outlander Contest for your favorite book before Outlander *g* Im giving away a copy of Katherine, and Stealing Heaven by Marion Meade, its the fictional account of Heloise and Abelard of 13th century France....wonderful book if you havent read it! Lot's of us meet up with Diana Gabaldon in Surrey,Vancouver in October...there was 90 of us last year. I run a message board for the Laurell K. Hamilton/ Anita Blake series if you need to email me just go there. I go by M&M and my email is right on top of the board. See you soon! http://www.voy.com/49618/ Michelle |
| Judy | Thu Mar 7 2002 18:33:11 |
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All this renewed interest in Katherine has prompted me to dig out my boxes of research materials and I thus happened upon a little gem I had entirely forgotten about and thought I'd toss out to you all. Volume XCVII (1981) of Archaeologia Cantiana has an article entitled "Canterbury Cathedral: The small Portrait Carvings of the Pulpitum c. 1400" by C.J. Dudley in which it is noted: "The older couple, nos. 5 and 6 appear to be portrayed with their eyes closed, which may be a trick of the light, but it suggests they may be posthumous portraits, whereupon the king's father John of Gaunt (d. 1399) and his third wife Kathryn Swynford (d. 1403) enter the field of speculation.." The article contains photographs of the carvings (however, my photocopy of the articles leaves a great deal to be desired) which are additionally noted to be "No larger than walnuts". I need to buy a new scanner anyway, and so when I do I'll try to get some of this stuff scanned and online. |
| Michelle | Fri Mar 8 2002 04:20:26 |
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Hello, I just wanted to let you know I set up a message board for "Katherine". I just did it tonight, and its no where near completed, but it's on its way. :-) What's nice about it is that you can reply to individual messages. So please stop by and say "Hi". Heres the url! http://www.voy.com/29505/ M&M |
| M&M | Fri Mar 8 2002 05:11:10 |
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I forgot to mention up there...Judy I tried doing a search on what you mentioned up there the... Canterbury Cathedral: The small Portrait Carvings of the Pulpitum c. 1400, and did get a page for something with it listed, but now pics. I would love to see anything that you have after 20 years of research, I'm verra excited to see whatever you decide to put up on the web. Hurry and get that scanner. :-) Michelle |
| Judy | Fri Mar 8 2002 16:01:22 |
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Michelle, You probably would need to obtain a printed copy, as I did. I was able to get it through my university's Interlibrary Loan. I will scan then when I acquire a scanner but be prepared for some disappointment. In addition, Margaret Galway in the 1960s I believe did an article speculating on the individuals portrayed in the Troilus Frontispiece which I think may be owned by a university in Corpus Christie Texas. She believed that the demure red-haired woman in blue and white was Katherine. j |
| Melanie | Fri Mar 8 2002 16:59:27 |
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I found the frontispiece on this site: http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/spc/imagecat/speccoll.htm and a closer view on: http://www2.auckland.ac.nz/lbr/lit/image2.html |
| Judy | Fri Mar 8 2002 19:03:51 |
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Yes, this is the image. Galway believes that the woman in the lower left-hand corner is possibly Katherine. j |
| Judy | Sat Mar 9 2002 00:13:04 |
| Oooops! Stupidity alert -- I don't know why I typed in "Texas" in conjunction with Corpus Christi, except that I live in the US Southwest and you almost always append the one to the other without even thinking about it @;-) |
| Kate Sanborn | Mon Mar 11 2002 20:19:21 |
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Wow - I'm am so excited to have found this site! Like so many of you, I recently read (and immediately re-read) Katherine by Anya Seton. I'm completely hooked! I dove into the web searching for any info I could find on Katherine, and stumbled on to this site. I have nothing of great interest to add to the conversation, only to say that I'm jotting down any book or article that is mentioned. Just thought I'd pop in and say hello from Fullerton, California (Orange County). Kate |
| Anne Irwin | Wed Mar 13 2002 20:52:16 |
| Like many of you I am just re-reading Katherine by Anya Seton, and stumbled upon this discussion. |
| Kate Head | Mon Mar 18 2002 12:07:35 |
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My God, how wonderful, lots of KS fans...I don't have anything particular to add, but thought I'd say hello! I must get to Lincolnshire!! |
| M&M | Wed Mar 20 2002 02:21:06 |
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Hello, I'm still working on a "Katherine" message board. I've gathered all the images I had, and sites pertaining to the couple and there are links for those on the top of the board. Here's the url http://www.voy.com/29505/ Please feel free to post anything about the book, Anya Seton, Katherine and John of Gaunt or just yourself. :-) Michelle |
| Lisa | Thu Mar 21 2002 04:03:40 |
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Hello "Cousins" and other Katherine Swynford fans, I am a descendant of Katherine and John of Gaunt's daughter Joan. It's quite nice to see that Katherine is not forgotten. I shall look forward to the "History Today" article in May. Lisa |
| Jenn | Thu Mar 21 2002 14:01:25 |
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Hi Lisa I hope you think that the History Today article is worth the wait!! I'm feeling quite nervous about it myself, there seems to be so much interest in it. Peter (the editor) has had lots of queries about it and my uni has been contacted by quite a few people. I can't help but think that you are all going to be disappointed!! Jenn |
| Judy | Fri Mar 22 2002 20:28:19 |
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KATE: You're in Fullerton? I teach at Cal State Fullerton!! (Altho' I live in Oceanside). Small world... Judy |
| kate | Fri Mar 22 2002 20:49:02 |
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Judy - That is quite a coincidence - considering we have people from all over the world on this board. I drive by Cal State Fullerton every day on my way to work!! Too funny. Kate |
| kate | Fri Mar 22 2002 20:50:33 |
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Judy - That is quite a coincidence - considering we have people from all over the world on this board. I drive by Cal State Fullerton every day on my way to work!! Too funny. Kate |
| kate | Fri Mar 22 2002 20:51:38 |
| OOOPS - didn't mean to post twice!! |
| Jacqui | Sat Mar 23 2002 04:25:06 |
| Another old fan of "Katherine" calling in. I read this book about 30 years ago and loved it. The star crossed lovers story was so intriging and it led me to study a history major for my "mature age" university degree. We never actually met up with Katherine and John but I've always maintained my interest, sufficiently that my daughter was the Ana who contacted this page looking for the Goodman pamphlet for me. That's arrived and filled in a few gaps but I am amazed like everyone that I've become a Katherine Groupie. I discovered History Today when I was back in England visiting family last year and delighted to find I can get it here in Sydney, Australia so I will also be looking forward to the May edition. |
| Marion | Sun Mar 24 2002 07:42:04 |
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This is just so much fun! I'm in the US, but spent my 7th to 12th grades in a girl's school owned and run by two ladies - one from England and one from Scotland. While we never really learned anything about KS, the emphasis was on English history. (I almost didn't graduate from college due to my lack of American history courses). I've loved Anya Seton's books since the first one I read "The Winthrop Woman" (excellent) and of course, Katherine, which just inspires one to learn more about her. I'm so glad I found this site. I, too, have that little pamphlet by Anthony Goodman and a well read copy of Katherine. Wish I had anything to add to this, but I'm really a novice here. Someday I'll get across the ocean and see it all!!!!!! marion |
| Lindsey | Wed Mar 27 2002 03:34:12 |
| I have been fasinated by Kathrine for years, I have recently lost my book by Ayna Seton...and now I am doing a term paper on Kathrine and I need information. I remember a lot of info from the book, but I would like to make sure it is concrete. If anybody could help me, I would be very greatful. As I have noticed, there is not a lot of anything about her on the web!! |
| Judy | Wed Mar 27 2002 17:10:37 |
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Lindsey, You do not say what your educational level is. This would help. Also, for what discipline is your term paper to be written? Finally, what is to be the focus of your paper? This information may help us help you. |
| Jeanine | Mon Apr 1 2002 20:51:27 |
| I must have read Katherine literally 30 plus times. It is my "comfort book" of sorts. I got it from my mother about 20 something years ago, read the binding off my first copy, and found another copy at an antique shop in Burbank, CA. It came complete with an illustrated Geneaological chart on the front and back inside covers ! I love this book, will probably read it another 20 or 30 times before I kick the bucket ! (I am 45yrs. young with a 5 year old son)I became instantly facsinated with Katherine, and greedily search paper and internet tidbits of her life ! I stumbled upon your discussion via an off chance "Google Search" for Katherine Swynford. I am soooo thrilled, I thought I must have been the only fanatic on the planet ! |
| Marion | Tue Apr 2 2002 06:44:26 |
|
I thought I must have been the only fanatic on the planet ! Nah there's a bunch of us. Actually, I'm fairly fanatical about most of what Anya Seton has written. Some of her earlier stuff was not very good, but I love most of them anyway |
| delphine | Fri Apr 5 2002 03:42:04 |
| I have been a fanatic about KS since I was thirteen when I read the famous novel. Over the years I have spoken to many people about her and noone had ever heard of her. I am so pleased to have found this site. I have lost my copy of the book and find through my bookseller that it will be republished in May. She is one of the historical figures that has been omitted by the recyclers of our era. Perhaps soon there will be more about KS and John, films etc. |
| Kasie | Tue Apr 9 2002 01:31:25 |
|
I'm doing a report on Katherine Swynford and am having alot of trouble finding what I need. Does anyone know what she is famous for or what her greatest accomplishment(s) is. I also need how she impacted history in her lifetime. Thanks!! |
| jenn | Tue Apr 9 2002 13:26:02 |
|
Hi Kasie Looking at this site (and others like it) I would say that her greatest accomplishment is her ability to capture the imagination of so many people!! Her impact in her own lifetime is represented by the unprecedented move of a important royal marrying his mistress. Medieval kings and princes were notorious for their mistresses but to marry one was unheard of! However, whether the marriage of KS and Gaunt caused a scandel or not is open for debate. Some historians write as if it automatically must have been scandalous but a look at the writing of medieval commentators would suggest otherwise, tribute to KS's diplomacy and behaviour. Her impact in other areas is also under debate but her example provides many new ways of approaching the study of medieval society and culture. I take it that it is a teacher who has set the work and not a personal choice? I hope the above gives you a starting point anyway. Jenn |
| Lindsey | Tue Apr 9 2002 17:24:42 |
| Judy, I am a senior in high school. But I decided to do my term paper on the black plague instead. Thank you though. Kathrine has interseted me for quite some time now, I find her quite amazing. Thanks again....~Lindsey |
| Judy | Tue Apr 9 2002 17:36:41 |
|
Kasie, As Jenn suggests, while the marriage itself was most unusual, the legitimation of their children by pope and parliament, paving the way for Henry VII to later claim royal heritage (tho' he seems to have specifically claimed the crown by right of conquest rather than lineage, as his wife Elizabeth of York, surviving heir of Edward IV, would have been closer to the throne) was most remarkable. There is some speculation that Henry IV, whose patronage of the Beauforts certainly went beyond the call of duty and suggests close personal relationships, was himself afraid of being supplanted as he had himself done to Richard II, going so far as to insert a phrase into the legitimation papers that made the Beauforts legit for all purposes except the throne. However, it has been pointed out that he lacked the authority to ex post facto alter an act passed by Parliament. One biographer of Alice Perrers, mistress of Edward III, suggests that Katheryn had none of Alice's "charm", a claim that is surprising given that the Alice who reportedly stole rings off Edward's corpse on her way out the back door strikes the modern reader as something less than charming. Moreover, Alice appears to have greased the royal conduits largely for the benefit of Alice, whereas Katheryn used what power she had and chose to exert to benefit others in at least 2 instances. Of note are her intercession on behalf of the borough of Leicester for the lending of the silver but perhaps more interesting is her work to organize, clean out and repair the Fosse Dyke, an important local water thoroughfare. She is the only woman, apart from an Abbess, on record has having taken part in this bit of grass-roots political activism. Additionally, she used benefits received from Gaunt to make significant upgrades to the Swynford holdings, which at the death of her father in law could only be described as decrepit. Sadly, little remains other than what has been described as a "splendid medieval arch" for her Kettlethorpe improvements. Finally, another way to look at her impact is to look at the lives of the children she influenced: Philippa of Lancaster was well-received in Portugal where she reigned as Queen to its King. Her daughter Joan, who could read and write and who was likely a patroness of I believe Hoccleve, was described by Goodman as 'a formidable dowager'. Henry IV, who most certainly could have chosen to ignore his father's third wife, calls her "the King's mother". Her son Henry Beaufort becomes the greatest power in England outside of Henry IV. As the first lady in the land, Katheryn is chosen to escort the new 8-year old child-bride of Richard II to England. Her son Thomas Beaufort has a distinguished military career and on and on. Oopos -- gotta run... Judy |
| Kasie | Tue Apr 9 2002 22:24:30 |
| I just wanted to thank you guys for the help!!!! Bye... Kasie |
| Judy | Tue Apr 16 2002 20:12:14 |
|
Hi all, Well, I finally got a tentative website up... You can find it by going to www.katherineswynford.net. Right now, the only links which are operational are in the images section (and not all of those), but I'm working on it. Enjoy and visit often :D Judy |
| jenn | Fri Apr 19 2002 13:58:51 |
|
For when you read the HT article... Yes I know that Froissart didn't write the Anominalle Chronicle but the editor obviously doesn't!!! |
| jenn | Fri Apr 19 2002 14:00:13 |
| forgot to say - go visit Judy's site, its really good!!! (as is should be given that she's the KS expert among us) |
| M&M | Fri Apr 26 2002 06:04:38 |
|
I just wanted to thank all that have come to visit the "Katherine" message board I started. http://www.voy.com/29505/ Feel free to come and talk about this wonderful book, sites or other books that you feel "almost" as passionate about. :-) The main reason for this post is if you haven't visit Judys site she is working on you really should. It's a lot of Katherine history in one place.....for over 20 years Judy has been researching...just fantastic! I just wish I found a site like this in my early web searches instead of things here and there. Like Jenn says she is our expert! Heres the url www.katherineswynford.net |
| Tracy | Fri May 3 2002 05:33:29 |
|
Hi everyone! I cannot tell you how thrilled i am for finding this site. I just finished reading "Katherine" yesterday. My mom lent me her copy and I had it for almost nine months before i pulled it out...I read a lot. All she every did was talk about how wonderful of a novel it was. It took me three days to read and I am bummed out I finished it. Every morning i could not wait to get up and read that day. When I finished I immediately called my mother in MA and wanted to talk forever about it but because of our 6 hour time difference I had to let her go...it was, after all, midnight on the East Coast. The only thing i can say is that i have this appetite to find out as much information i can on this remarkable woman Katherine. So, i have enjoyed reading everyones comments and look forward to checking out the two websites set up by Judy and M&M. Thank you. Tracy P.S. Why hasn't a screen play been written for this book? I think it would make a fabulous movie...especailly nowadays since there are so few good ones out there. |
| Kate Head | Fri May 3 2002 12:03:27 |
|
Hi Tracy, Exactly! What a film it would make...in England we've had a spate of historical programmes by top historian David Starkey, but they focus mainly on the Tudors, so I sent him an email asking if there are plans for a series on the Plantagenets...and I mentioned the importance of Katherine to our royal history...have I had a response??! No!! grrrr! lol Take care, Kate |
| jenn | Fri May 3 2002 19:58:22 |
|
Starkey's obsessed by his own self importance though anyway. He was at the award cermony for my dissertation prize and he was highly noticable as one guest who didn't bother coming to congratulate me or ask about my thesis. KS is just not interesting enough for TV in a straight documentary sense - not enough direct facts on her life to produce something. The speculation needed to fill an hour's show isn't the sort of thing TV would like - too academic they feel for an average audience. Would make a terrific film though from the novel!!! |
| RITA ATKIN | Sun May 5 2002 15:54:04 |
| HI THERE, I LIVE AT KETTLETHORPE AND AM CURRENTLY PUTTING TOGETHER AN EXHIBITION OF STORY BOARDS FOR THE CHURCH IN THE ROMANCE OF KATHERINE AND JOHN. |
| Judy | Sun May 5 2002 16:36:59 |
|
Rita, What are you looking for (or, are you?)? Judy |
| Judy | Mon May 6 2002 03:07:11 |
|
Well, just wanted to let you all know that I just got up another draft page -- it's a brief bit that looks at some of the points at which Seton, either intentionally for dramatic effect or out of necessity due to a paucity of information, departs from the historic record. I'll also try to get a Swynford geneaology up tonight or sometime tomorrow. Am still eagerly anticipating reading Jenn's article -- unfoprtunately, my university hasn't yet received the May edition. Grrr. :( |
| Rita Atkin | Tue May 7 2002 07:06:55 |
|
Hi again, On the 18th/19th May 2002 The Church of St. Peter & St. Paul Kettlethorpe is taking part in one of the Churches open weekends organised by West Lindsey (Lincolnshire) Tourist Board. The Church will be open 10-4 (church service 9-10 on Sunday) both days and is offering the following attractions - sale of light refreshments, sales table, a demonstration of lacemaking and a series of story boards telling the story of the romance of John & Katherine plus a display of church kneelers worked by members of the congregation. You will also be able to see the 14th century gateway through which Katherine probably walked to reach the church. On the 28th/29th June Kettlethorpe and the surrounding district are hosting a Golden Jubilee celebration in the grounds of Kettlethorpe Hall,this will give enable you to see the grounds of the hall as well as the medieval moat. The celebration is taking the form of a garden fete with all the usual attractions i.childrens entertainment,games,bouncy castle, ball pond etc. with plenty of attractions for adults. There will be a marquee which will have stalls and where refreshments will be on sale. There will be a bar available. In the church there is to be a display of authentic coronation robes as worn by peeresses and pages in Westminster Abbey itself as well as flower displays by the ladies of the community and a 'Five decades of history display'. Thankyou Judy for your reply, any information you have would be most welcome. |
| Judy | Tue May 7 2002 20:19:38 |
|
Rita, Email me at: katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com or jperryl@ecs.fullerton.edu I may have some ideas for you... Judy |
| Merje Aviste | Wed May 15 2002 13:26:42 |
|
Hello to everybody! I just found this site and it was such a pleasant surprise! I'm from Estonia. I read the book by Anya Seton many years ago and it's one of my favorites still. We have a medieval club called "Rewal" in Tallinn. We study medieval dances we all have medieval costumes, we also have lectures about history, also hair and make-up. So I can be Katherine sometimes! Katherine is the main reason for my interest in medieval stuff. So far I had no idea that there is so many information about her in the net. There's so much to discover about her. So, if you would like to help me with that then you can e-mail me: merje.aviste@mail.ee kelly@mschumacher.com |
| Linda Toews | Tue May 28 2002 05:25:52 |
|
Hello...just finished Katherine for the millionth time...keep going back to read it every few years...and now that I have a computer I thought I would try to find info on Katherine...not thinking I'd have much luck. Then, low and behold, here is all this information and people that love her as much as I do. I cannot believe it. Please keep me posted. Linda |
| Judy | Tue May 28 2002 06:14:35 |
| Judy | Tue May 28 2002 06:18:53 |
|
Hi all, Just got up two more pages: http://www.katherineswynford.net/Philippa.html http://www.katherineswynford.net/Comparison.html The first is a long-ish photo essay on the supposed finding of the tomb of Katheryn's sister Philippa Chaucer; be patient, as there are more than a few pictures that, on an analog modem, could take some download time. The second is just a quickie page examing the resemblance between this Philippa effigy face, that of the "Katherine" of the Troilus Frontispiece (per George Williams and not Margaret Galway -- what I get for speaking off the cuff on stuff I hadn't read in 20 years; Margaret also had a similar article, but she thinks the Chaucerian sun rises, sets, and planets all orbit about Joan of Kent) and also of Katheryn's daughter Joan per her effigy. Enjoy! Judy |
| Susan Frearson | Wed May 29 2002 16:47:22 |
| What a wonderful site to find. As others on the site, I read the book many years ago when I was in my teens and it left a lasting impression - I've seen her tomb at Lincoln and only a couple of months ago I visited Kenilworth castle. I lost my copy several years ago but recently found a copy in a charity shop so I'm rereading it. I've really enjoyed all the information on this site and its links. |
| M&M | Thu May 30 2002 16:13:51 |
|
Oh Judy....I loved it! Your site is really incredible. So much info in one spot....thank-you! Michelle |
| Judy | Thu May 30 2002 23:29:54 |
|
Michelle, Awwww, shucks. <blush>. Have you read Jeanette's article? It's really quite well done! The editors made a couple of goofs, but all in all a nice piece. Plus, it has lots of pictures <g> (I'm a pictures person). I am still trying to get a Swynford geneaology up, but I had forgotten what a headache it had come to be trying to piece the tree together with so many seemingly orphan branches. Judy |
| Carol | Sat Jun 1 2002 02:25:44 |
|
Appears to be a common theme! 14 year old girl reads "Katherine" then rereads and rereads it. I had given my last copy (a tattered paperback) to my daughter (she loved it too) a few years back and was hankering to read it again when I found two copies at a five dollar a bag library sale (one was the original red book with a mildewed dust cover) here in Sacramento California. So I just read it again and am delighted to discover there are other Katherine junkies out there. I am not much of a romance/historical novel fan but this book is the bomb and reads even better at age 50 than at 14. P.S. She's also an ancesstress of mine. |
| M&M | Mon Jun 3 2002 18:05:57 |
| Carol I have a feeling you are an "Evanovich" fan too! :-) |
| Carol | Wed Jun 5 2002 04:35:00 |
| I am not familiar with "Evanovich"...is it a series or what? I read a wide range of novels (Italo Calvino, Saul Bellow, Urusla K. LeGuin, Hijuelos, Kate Seredy, Dr. Suess, Grace Paley, George Eliot are all favorites) but am always open to new stuff. Phillipp Pullman's series is amazing (and tis aimed at adolescents) and then I'm reading James Joyce in bed the other night, go figure! However "Katherine" has a special place for me. When reading it in my youth, I was into the romance bits and skimming over the politics and Katherine's renunciation and later enlightenment with Lady Julian's grace. After living quite a few more years and raising a couple kids of my own (and we sure had our rough times) Katherine's mature strength and tough tenderness impress me. The reunion with Blanchette has me crying me eyes out! |
| M&M | Wed Jun 5 2002 15:01:21 |
|
The Evanovich series isn't Historical Fiction, unless of course your idea of the current "goings on" in Trenton, New Jersey qualify for that. :-) It is a series about a layed off lingerie buyer for a dept. store who goes to work as a bounty hunter to make money. They are the funniest books I have ever read, perfect light summer reading. The first one in the series is "One for the Money". The newest one "Hard Eight" comes out in a couple of weeks...for which I can't wait. You might try "Stealing Heaven" by Marion Meade for a pure historical fiction. It's the fictional account of 12th century true life French lovers Heloise and Abelard. It was my favorite book for about 15 years. Till I read "Outlander" by Diana Gabaldon, also Historical Fiction, which is still my favorite book/series. I can truely say if you read "Stealing Heaven" and both of these series this summer, it would be one of the best "reading summers" you have ever had! :-) Michelle |
| linda | Thu Jun 6 2002 05:27:08 |
| While reading material in some of the internet sights that discuss the historical aspects of the characters of KATHERINE by Anya Seton, I happened upon some information that has bothered me...the speculation that perhaps John of Gaunt had an affair with Katherine's sister, Phillipa though it is not well subtantiated or proven to be fact. I guess that this speculation upsets me because the story of John and katherine seems so incredible...to mar it with suggestions of the above seems intolerable...but then who really knows what went on during all of their lives...I just don't want it to be true. |
| Judy | Thu Jun 6 2002 16:55:19 |
|
Linda, The reasons for this speculationare (a) finding 'Roet' arms on the tomb of Chaucer's son, Thomas, rather than Chaucer arms; and (b) Gaunt providing a handsome dowery for Chaucer's daughter, Elizabeth, when she entered Barking Abbey in 1381. I personally agree with Martin Ruud on the matter of the first point ('he was a snob, not a bastard). As for the second, Elizabeth was likely joining her cousin Margaret Swynford who was already at Barking by royal nomination. As for why the idea of Gaunt fathering children on both Philippa and Katheryn, there is the matter of how such couplings would have been viewed at the time. A matter of debate is whether it was formally against canon law or merely against social mores. Certainly within 100 years of Philippa's lifetime the Church was burning people for this 'incestuous' act. It would have been viewed as completely morally repugnant. No contemporary of Gaunt, including his most vehement detractors, ever saw fit to make the claim. Bottom line? Probably didn't happen. Just my 2 small monetary units, mind you. |
| Pippa Willems | Thu Jun 20 2002 10:37:47 |
| Hi: And I thought I was unique!! My story is identical with most of yours. Given my mum's copy to read at age 14, and have read it about 30 times since.I am now in my 50's.I'm reading it again at the moment, and thought I would check out web sites--not expecting anything. I noted the Anthony Goodman ?book ?pamphlet I looked it up on abe books and Amazon, but found nothing. Can anyone tell me where I can find it? Also, ditto for KS Chantry--by the way what exactly is it about? I am in Australia. Delighted to have found you!! Pippa. |
| Sara | Fri Jun 21 2002 15:17:21 |
|
http://www.countrybookshop.co.uk/books/index.phtml?whatfor=1870561074 Pippa, I bought my copy of the Anthony Goodman book from the link I've attached above. I had no problem shopping with them. My book arrived ontime and in excellent condition. Being in the U.S. I was a bit concerned but they handled everthing very well. Sara |
| Judy | Fri Jun 21 2002 18:54:44 |
|
Pippa, John Hooper Harvey wrote a small pamphlet published, I think, by/for Lincoln Cathedral (which is where I acquired my copy several years back). It examines the architectural style of Katherine's funeral monument (and that of her daugher, Joan's) and compares it to other contemporary monuments. It doesn't provide much info on Katherine herself but does reproduce some of the various drawings made of the tomb, one of which was done prior to the destructive loss of the brass with her image on it. You might try the Cathedral for a copy, but if this isn't fruitful, contact me and I'll see if I can locate a copy for you. BTW, for everyone, the mystery of the finding of Katherine's sister's tomb heats up! It appears to be stylistically somewhat odd, the 'Roel wheel badge' isn't obviously a wheel but appears to be a brooch of some sort, but I've yet to find any other contemporary monuments using a pin to close such a garment (anybody who's read John of Gaunt's registers may recall that he liked to give _buttons_ as gifts; these replaced pins in fitting/closing clothing). Is it Philippa's tomb or isn't it? Only her craftsman knows for sure ;-) Judy |
| Stephanie | Mon Jul 8 2002 04:51:42 |
|
Hi everyone, I'm so glad to have found this website. I found my copy of Katherine at my grandmother's house and I have read it every year since. This summer I was able to visit England but could not make it Katherine's burial place. What a disappointment! Stephanie, Tennessee USA |
| Frances | Mon Jul 8 2002 14:01:08 |
|
Jenn Is it possible to get a copy of your full dissertation? I have really enjoyed reading the article in History Today but find that I disagree with some of your statements and conclusions. As this is an "abridged" versions I would be most grateful to read the whole version. Like most of the other people on this site I have been intrested in Katherine since I read the book as a teenager(more than 30 years ago). Since then I have done considerable research into her background and life. If I can be of any help to you or anyone else drop me a line Frances, Cambridge |
| jenn | Mon Jul 8 2002 20:28:03 |
|
feel free to disagree!!! just my opinion of how I view the scanty evidence that there is!!! anything in particular that you didn't like? you can mail me at jlucraft@totalise.co.uk if you prefer... |
| Frances, Cambridge | Tue Jul 9 2002 13:46:03 |
|
To Rita (Atkin) Sorry to miss the event in Kettlethorpe Hall but I only dicovered this site a few days ago. Don't know if you are intrested but I wrote a short dissertation on the history of the deer park at Kettlethorpe for a History of Gardens course I attended. I am quite happy to send you a copy if you are intrested. Frances PS Unfortunately I've got builders in at the momment so it might take me couple of days to find !!! |
| Emma | Wed Jul 10 2002 22:13:51 |
|
Hello everyone! I just wanted to say how much I loved the book 'Katherine' after my mum lent me her old and slightly worn copy a week ago. Once I started it I just couldn't stop! I went to the library today and read a copy of Jenns article in History Today and was pleased that she thought they had continued to see each other in the 1380's as that long separation seemed so cruel to me. I live in Grimsby (which is briefly mentioned!) and am interested in distinguishing the fact from fiction in the book. If anyone needs any local help let me know. Luv Emma. |
| M&M | Thu Jul 11 2002 02:36:03 |
|
Frances of Cambridge, I would love to read your dissertation on Kettlethorpe, would that be possible. Michelle |
| Pippa Willems | Fri Jul 12 2002 14:35:45 |
| Thanks, Sara and Judy. I only found out how to update this page and read your messages today. I'll see how I go getting the books. |
| judy | Sat Jul 13 2002 16:31:26 |
| I am on holiday inSpain and found this site on my sisters computer I am yet again reading Katherine and as always cannot put it down wonderful holiday reading didnt know so many people are enthralled by her person and the love story of the time. Will definately make the "pilgrimage" to Lincoln when I get home. |
| Emma | Sat Jul 13 2002 20:51:08 |
|
I'm not sure if anyone will be interested in this but I visited Bolingbroke castle today and just thought I'd write a little piece incase anyone was interested in visiting the castle and wondered what was there. The outer ring of the castle remains up to about 3 metres high and there are some walls inside which allow you to imagine how the lay out may have been. There are some information plaques which describe what some areas were altough there is very little historical information about the castle or its past inhabitants. You can see where the moat around the castle was (and in some parts still is)! You can also see the side entrance where Katherine may have gotten into the castle to see the dying Blanche (if this is true). Although this castle has clearly been neglected for hundreds of years it is worth a visit if you are in the area and entrance is free (which is always nice)! The arms of the Duke of Lancaster are also still flying next to a pub near the castle. Emma. |
| kate | Tue Jul 16 2002 20:51:17 |
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Emma, Thanks for sharing! I don't know if or when I'll ever be able to visit all these historical sites, so it's fun to live vicariously through others. Thanks again, Kate |
| Judy | Tue Jul 16 2002 21:35:06 |
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To: Frances of Cambridge, I'd be interested in reading your work on Kettlethorpe, as well as dialoguing with you on what you've found re: Katherine. If you can, please drop me a line at katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com. (Sorry it's taken me this long to respond: I was on vacation). Judy |
| Tori | Tue Jul 16 2002 22:28:47 |
|
I have also been fascinated by Kathrine's story, I also have the hard back copy of Kathrine. I rescued it from the library, can you belive they were going to throw it away. What kind of people are they? I thought the book was going to be boring when I first started reading it. Now I want to know more about her. Most websites have the same info that I have.I'm thinking of writting a play about them. Does anyone have any ideas? Tori |
| Judy | Tue Jul 23 2002 04:01:53 |
|
ADDING INSULT TO INJURY! Here's another little tidbit garnered from a biography of Henry Beaufort (John and Katheryn's son). You may (or may not) recall that the Monk of St. Alban's was among John & Katheryn's fiercest detractors (quite possibly because John's 2nd wife Constance was one of their patrons). Well, apparently, after Gaunt's death, as Katheryn and their son Henry accompanied his cortege on its way to interment at St. Paul's, the abbey of St. Albans, on a jurisdictional point of nitpicking, admitted Gaunt's body but refused admittance & lodging to Katheryn and their son Henry, refusing especially to allow the latter (now bishop of Lincoln) to celebrate his father's obsequies without a formal indemity, which was ultimately given and obsequies said, and Gaunt's bequests of vestments given to the abbey. But, as Beaufort's biographer notes, "Bishop Henry did not forget the incident, and on his first visitation early in the next reign the abbot [of St. Albans] found it advisable to placate him by permitting him to exercise his episcopal functions and by making him a gift of a ring which he coveted, containing a portion of the holy cross." (Cardinal Beaufort: A Study of Lancastrian Ascendancy and Decline. G. L. Harriss. [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1988], p. 9]. I've not seen this story elsewhere but it is testament to the sense of family solidarity instilled by Gaunt (certainly) but also quite possibly by Katheryn herself. Beaufort was later to make bequests to cover prayers said for the souls of his father and mother, and sister Joan. Judy |
| M&M | Wed Jul 24 2002 05:26:55 |
|
Hello All!!!! Well the Katherine Message Board has finally hit the search engines and Katherine lovers are finding it. I thought this would never happen to be honest...I was losing faith. Judy Perry... who's name is all over this board *grin*...her website is in the "history" link right at the top of the board. It answered so many questions I had of this fascinating couple, I'm sure lots of yours will be answered too. It's a wonderful site! Anyway...here's the message board again. http://www.voy.com/29505/ Take care all! Michelle/M&M |
| Wick | Tue Jul 30 2002 00:02:52 |
|
I am afraid that what Hollywood would do to this story would upset us all. There are just too many blank spots that would allow them poetic license to really screw it all up. I am having lunch with Richard Zanuck in the near future and I know that mentioning to him making a movie about Katherine and John would be the last thing I would want to do. They too are my Great Great (18) parents through Joan and Robert de FERRERS. I might also comment on how informative this site has been. I am very glad that I stumbled on it in the middle of the night. |
| Rita Atkin | Tue Jul 30 2002 06:32:22 |
|
To Frances, Cambridge. Sorry,I have only just read of your kind offer, I would dearly love a copy of your work if possible. To all other fans out there, do any of you have a short dramatised piece of the story? Next year as many of you will know it will be 600yrs since Katherine died (10th May 1402). We at Kettlethorpe are hoping to hold a Medieval weekend and as part of this we would like to produce a short play in the Church. I can be contacted on cottage2ld.fsnet.co.uk |
| Mona | Wed Jul 31 2002 03:26:44 |
|
I think that I came here through the back door. I was helping my father in a genealogy project and Katherine's name popped up. I thought that she was extremely interesting and therefore increased my research in her direction. I think that I was titillated by the fact that she had been a mistress. I also love it when I discover Pirates among my ancestors. I finally checked to see what her relationship was to me and was astounded to find that she was my Great Grandmother 19 generations back. I am Anglican and my Priest's wife loaned me Anya Seton's book "KATHERINE". I love the fact that what information there is, has been put in into story form. Now I have a question that some of you more knowledgeable people here on this board. I have seen Katherine's name spelled Several different ways, Katherine, Kathryn and Catherine. 95% of the time I see it spelled Katherine. However, since she was born in France and lived in England I would have assumed that it would have been spelled with a "C" as in Catherine. For this is the normal way it is spelled in these two countries. Catherine spelled with a "K" is usually associated with the Greek or Scandinavian countries. Also she was supposed to have been named after her patron saint, Saint Catherine The Catherine of the Wheel). Catherine spelled with a "K" is usually associated with the Greek or Scandinavian countries. Has anyone seen an original document or a copy of one that shows the correct spelling of her name. Also, I have noticed that most everyone here has read the book "Katherine" and that has apparently drawn them to this web site. I am curious as to how many of the people on this board are actually related to her ? Thank you all for listening to me. I find you all very polite and quite knowing and caring in your responses.......Mona Elizabeth Mills |
| Judy | Wed Jul 31 2002 16:52:38 |
|
Mona, As to your query about an 'original' document showing the 'correct' spelling of her name, with the exception of ever finding a letter she wrote with her own hand, we're all out of look as standardized spelling is a rather modern phenomenon. I think I once saw a contemporary document which spelled the word 'chidlren' differently THREE TIMES in the same sentence. Hopeless. Unless someone discovers a letter. I once saw her name spelled "Katheryn" in a contemporary document, liked it because it was distinctive, and stuck with that (although it hurts me in the search engines, obviously, so I might change it back to something more conventional). Judy |
| Mona | Wed Jul 31 2002 18:18:46 |
|
Judy, Thank you very much. That was a good answer and probably the correct one. My mind tends towards the absolute and in many of these cases there just isn't any. Therefore I am going to revert back to using the "C" for Catherine. I have seen William Shakespeare signature on letters he wrote to a relative of mine and he spelled it three different ways. So, if he can vary the spelling why can't Catherine or us for that matter. I have another question. Other than the wood relief carvings, those that are the size of a walnut, is there any other known portait or painting of Catherine in existence. I also want to thank you for the page you are working on. It is an asset.....Mona |
| Judy | Thu Aug 1 2002 19:58:01 |
|
Mona, Thank you for your kind words about my site! I wish I had the time to do more and faster, but I am in the process of getting all of my sources computerized, and I am learning a new computer language to design the database to do it, so that production is time-consuming. As far as I am aware, the answer is no (with the exception of the drawing of her effigy). However, on my images page, you will see that one Chaucerian has argued that the figure in the lower-left of the Troilus Frontispiece, also on my page, is Katheryn. There is no agreement on this. I suppose that one could argue that any of the Froissart MS images of the period in which Isabella of France, who married Richard II, was escorted to England showing Isabella with the English ladies' delegation could be Katheryn, but such images were intended to advance the story along rather than be accurate portraiture and rendering. There is a portrait said to be that of her son Henry Beaufort in his later years which shows a rather broad, fleshy face; this tallies well with what I've seen of his effigy. Her daughter Joan's effigy shows a somewhat broad forehead and narrower chin, but a rather longish face and I speculate she inherited this from her father. If the effigy at East Worldham is indeed that of Katheryn's sister Philippa (and there is good reason to suspect that it is not), that particular image seems similar to the Troilus image. BTW, I think the 'walnut' carvings are of stone, but I could be mistaken. Sorry... :( I am bummed as well. Judy |
| Judy | Fri Aug 9 2002 22:07:38 |
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Hi all, I've added a new page -- a short piece on Roet geneaology (incomplete). If you're interested, head on over to: http://members.cox.net/judy-perry/Roets.html Judy |
| Mona E. Mills | Thu Aug 15 2002 09:36:47 |
|
I finally finished the book, "Katherine". I kept crying while reading it. I am 28 and am quite a romantic. I thought that she was describing when in reality she was talking about Katherine. The auburn hair, the grey eyes and dating men has never been a problem. I felt like we were one. It was an emotional journey for me. I thought that I would point out one glaring error the author made. She stated or infered that Joan BEAUFORT was married to Robert de FERRERS for only a short time. She was married to him from 1391 to at least 1393 and bore him two daughters; Elizabeth de FERRERS b.1392 and Mary de FERRERS b. abt.1393. Elizabeth being my great grandmother some 18 generations ago. Should any one be curious, I will be glad to e-mail you my picture.....Mona |
| Christy | Thu Aug 15 2002 15:52:43 |
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Judy, I was looking over your genealogy site, which is very well put together! I do have one question for you: Where did you get the information on Kathryn's children through Hugh? |
| Judy | Thu Aug 15 2002 16:53:48 |
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Christy, Thomas is referred to in numerous places (I think his father's IPM, various feudal aids, Gaunt's will... he actually has an interesting life that I will be filling in when I have the time); Blanche is referred to but twice AFAIK -- Gaunt's Registers, in which he makes provisions for the marriage of Katheryn's daughter Blanche, and the Calendar of Papal Entries in which Gaunt and Katheryn seek dispensation to marry, being related in a prohibited degree (Gaunt standing godfather to a daughter of Katheryn's -- here Blanche is the obvious reference as she is likely named for Gaunt's first wife); as for Margaret, this is my supposition based upon the following: In 1377 Richard II, on occasion and by right of his accession, named two nuns, namely, an Elizabeth Chaucer to the Priory of St. Helen's and a Margaret Swynford, to the vastly more prestigious Barking Abbey, where she later became abbess and where Elizabeth Chaucer later ends up courtesy of a dowry from Gaunt. Richard II was notoriously fond of Katheryn (as was his supplanter, Henry IV, but he had familial reasons for so doing) and the linking of the two is striking. At least one archivist suggested that Elizabeth's nomination was perhaps intended to provide companionship for Margaret. The royal orders for Elizabeth and Margaret are suggestingly sequential. While there are other Swynfords floating about in this time period who are not Hugh's children, none so far have the same 'in' with the royal family. HTH, Judy |
| Jan | Sun Aug 18 2002 15:05:02 |
| I just found this forum and am thrilled. I read "Katherine" when I was in my early teens and have been fascinated ever since. 25 years later, its still one of my favorite books. |
| Nina Dunne | Tue Aug 27 2002 21:10:26 |
| Judy-I was so thrilled to find you and fellow Katherine fans after years of thinking I was alone in my reaction to the book. Like many of you I have hunted for information about Katherine and John and have found it very scant. I have read both Goodman and Armitage Smith as welll as de Silver -Vigia and, like most of you out there, any biography of any one of the period that refers to Katherine. I wonder if any one has any thoughts on the "Latin Quit claim" of 1382 which I find really hard to put into the picture of the relationship as quite clearly the two remained in contact as you will know, John grants her son Thomas 100 marks for life in 1383,he repays a loan to Katherine of 500 marks in 1386 and he is in Lincoln in 1386 when Henry Bolingbrook,John Beaufort,and Thomas Swynford were admitted to the fraternity of cathedral . Also the King admitted Katherine into the order of the garter of the in 1387 because of the high regard John had for her. I really can't see where such a harsh document fits in to this, can you thow any light on the subject? While I am on my favorite subject, do you agree that it is probable that the 4 Beauforts were the Surviving children of the couple , I cant imagine that many woman of the period saw all her children survive........and if John was the godfather of Blanche Swynford why did it need to be secret if the relationship was above board, could Blanche have been John's child it is not beyond the relms of possibility as he did not admit to being John Beaufots father until the second son was born , after Hugh's death . I 'd love to know your thoughts on this . Thank you for your wonderful site I feel so lucky to have come accross it by accident---Nina |
| Judy | Mon Sep 30 2002 20:23:10 |
|
Nina--Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. New term, and one of the classes is essentially a prep, PLUS I've enrolled in a second Master's program (instructional design & technology. Go figure). My personal opinion for what it is worth is that the whole breakup story -- witnessed by 2 chroniclers, incidentally -- was a calculated move by Gaunt to protect Katheryn and their children. At the time of the Peasant's Revolt, John of Gaunt may well have been the single most unpopular man in England. His physician was brutally murdered by the mob. His favorite castle, the Savoy, was completely laid to ruins. His legal wife and Duchess, Constance, had to flee in fear for her own life and was initially refused refuge by the nobility. Gaunt himself high-tailed it up to Scotland, not certain of the reception he'd receive at Richard's hands. And yet, he didn't go to one of his own castles, recently fortified. He seemingly just hides out for a while someplace less obvious and, when he finally does emerge, it was to have a dramatic reunion with Constance and renounce Katheryn, his relationship with whom by the mid-1370s had been, shall we say, *indiscrete*, for which the chronicler's were merciless in their condemnation. All is forgiven for a while and even his most strident detractors appear mollified. If you look at it from Gaunt's point of view, your physician was murdered by a mob, your wife flees for her own life, and you're not certain that even if Richard receives you warmly (questionable), you yourself might well be hacked to pieces en route. Everyone close to you is in danger. How better to protect Katheryn and their young children? I believe Anthony Goodman believes the break-up to be genuine, but then why would Gaunt see to it that Katheryn and her children continued to occupy prominant posts in the household of his young daughter-in-law, Mary of Derby? Recall also that by the 1380s, his two daughters for whom Katheryn was ostensibly employed as governess, were no longer really of the age to need one; indeed, shortly Philippa would be packed off to Portugal and Elizabeth would engage in conduct perhaps even more shocking than Katheryn herself. Recall also that the 1380s was a period of active involvement of Gaunt and Constance to try to reclaim Constance's father's throne. Richard certainly seems to have had high regard or congenial feelings for Katheryn. He admitted her daughter Margaret to Barking Abbey by royal accession privilege. He protected her dower interests even after he gave the boot to Gaunt's son Henry and confiscated his inheritance. I think Gaunt fathering Blanche is another matter, however. Canonically, it would have been impossible for Gaunt to have stood godfather to her, his own daughter. And, since the papal permission to marry Katheryn and ex post facto legitimate their children rested upon the accuracy in the papal petition which noted that he stood godfather to a daughter of Katheryn's, I think he clearly was not her father. BTW, what is the de Silver -Vigia document you've referenced? I'd love to have a look... --Judy |
| M&M | Tue Oct 1 2002 19:51:38 |
|
Hello All, Well sorry to say the "Katherine Message Board" did not go as well over as I thought it would. Now there are problems with the server and it's totally gone! So I didn't bother to re-make it. However I did redo my Katherine pages, that included links and pictures, and pays homage to Judy Perrys site :-)! I want to do a site on all my favorite reads, "Katherine", "Stealing Heaven" (Heloise and Abelard) and "Outlander". "Katherine" was first and here it is http://bogiebuddy.com/favorite_books/katherineswynford.htm I did include a guestbook so please let me know if you like....thanks!!! Michelle/M&M |
| Kate | Tue Oct 1 2002 20:47:33 |
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I'm a dedicated lurker, but find I really don't have much of value to add. Just want to let you ladies know how much I enjoy your posts! Judy, your in-depth and well researched responses are such a joy to read. What a great group on this board. Kate (your friend from Fullerton) |
| Ann-Katrine Christoffersen | Tue Oct 15 2002 11:01:30 |
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Just found this wonderful place. Like you, Kate, I'm will probably only be a lurker too. I really enjoyed reading all the posts sooo much! Ann Katrine (from Roskilde, Denmark) |
| Nina | Sun Oct 20 2002 16:50:24 |
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Judy-Thank you for your reply,I'm with you on this one! The Latin Quit claim was ,I am sure a means to protect. In 1382 John was going to try to claim the crown of Castile and didnt know if he would return, as you say he was very unpopular and any one associated with him was in danger especially if he was absent from England. He took great pains to make sure his legitimate heir, Henry , was not in danger of loosing any of the Lancastrian inheritance and bought the land inherited by the Beauforts specifically for them. It is possible that he was not only looking after Katheryn and her young family but also Henry and his inheritance so that there could be no misunderstandings if he was killed in the campagne ahead.John was a meticulous administrator as shown in his will, he left nothing to chance, like you I cannot see that the LQC was any thing but a calculated plan to protect his family . The book referenced was 'This moste highe prince John of Gaunt by Anil de Silva-Vigier ( sorry I spelt it from memory last time ,big mistake)In some parts it is rather fanciful but neverthelss a good read for any one who is interested Katheryn and her man! I bow to your far superior knowledge where Blanche is concerned but I am still left wondering why they made a secret of the fact that John was her godfather. A child born to a married woman was always considered to be the husbands child ( no DNA tests in those days !) but I am still left wondering what relationship Katheryn had with John at that time, have you any thoughts on this? |
| James Rowed | Thu Oct 24 2002 19:40:17 |
|
Salutations from northern Canada. According to family lore, my family tree goes back to Sir Payne. My family has actually lived in British North America for about 12 generations. The only vestiges remaining of my British Ancestry are a sword presented to one Lt. Henry Rowed, a 18th century King James Bible, and some family portraits. I would be interest in learning more about my indigenous British Roots; any on interest in dialogue? Do you all still live in mud and straw huts and eat with your hands? Just kidding. |
| Marie | Fri Oct 25 2002 06:58:52 |
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Judy, Wow--I just stumbled across this website. As I have skimmed through the messages, I have been amazed (nearly dumbfounded) at all of the time and effort you are putting into this topic. I too have twins, who are 8 months old, and a 2 yr old boy and cannot conceivably envision myself tackling something of this nature. Hat's off to you! I, like nearly every one else, became intrigued with Kathryn through Anya Seton's book. Fascinating. I might also recommend another of her books--My Theodosia, which is the story of the daughter of Aaron Burr, the politician. Another great book. Keep up the excellent work. I look forward to perusing your website and learning more. Thank you for your time and effort. Marie |
| donna kellett | Mon Nov 4 2002 04:40:44 |
| Just to add my little contribution to the 'cult of Katherine' - I named my daughter after Katherine Swynford (and Katherine of Aragon, too). It was quite a thrill to go to Lincoln Cathedral several years ago and have a picture of my daughter next to the tomb of her namesake. Does anyone out there have a jpeg or gif of Katherine Swynford's blazon - the three catherine wheels? I've been looking for awhile and can't seem to find anything. If anyone has this and could send it to me at gloWWWorm@yahoo.com I would be very grateful. |
| Renwick G. Congdon, Jr. | Mon Nov 4 2002 18:41:29 |
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I happened to run across a families genealogy of Swynford's that stated that Catherine was his third wife. That caught me off guard as this was the first time that I had ever heard of him having been married before. Does anyone have any information on this subject or shall I just assume that they are wrong. Thank you, Wick |
| Judy | Mon Nov 4 2002 19:09:03 |
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Hi Renwick, That Catherine was *whose* third wife? Certainly she was Gaunt's third wife. I and certainly many of the others who frequent this board would likely be most interested in seeing your source if it claims that Catherine was *Hugh's* third wife :-D Judy |
| Linda | Tue Nov 5 2002 04:37:36 |
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Having finished Katherine for the umpteenth time....I always feel as sense of loss....a sadness that the story is over...at least until next time I pick up the book. To all of you 'katherine' fans out there...Do you know of any other book that I could read that even begins to be as interesting, powerful, charming, fascinating, etc. as the novel, Katherine. I read some of Anya Seton's other books and found that (though they were good books) they just did not compare. Can anyone give me a suggestion of a historical novel that even comes close to impacting the reader like this novel does? |
| Gracie | Tue Nov 5 2002 16:47:30 |
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This site is great! I also first read "Katherine" as a teen and have since read it at least once a year. (I am now in my late 30's) I thought I was one of very few Katherine "fanatics" & am thrilled to have found this very informative site. Through the years, this this incredible story depicting such enduring love between two people who actually existed and whose relationship was documented, has given me countless hours of enjoyment and I will be forever greatful to Anya Seton for writing this book. I too have wished a movie were made of this couple, but only if it would remain true to Ms. Seton's book. Maybe this will happen in my lifetime. I'll keep checking on a regular basis for more info. which may be posted. Keep up the good work and thanks! Gracie in Texas |
| M&M | Tue Nov 5 2002 20:15:47 |
|
I can recommend two books...both Historical Fiction. :-) The first "Stealing Heaven" by Marion Meade. It's the fictional account of the true story of 12th century lovers Heloise and Abelard. He a famous philosopher who tutors Heloise and falls in love with her. Heloise is a woman way ahead of her time. I'm currently working on a website for it, like my "Katherine" site. The other is "Outlander" by Diana Gabaldon. Although usually kept in the romance dept. (in the U.S. that is) at major book stores, this is definetly Historical Fiction. It deals with the fall of the Clans in 1700's Scotland. Well written with a bit of humor thrown in. It's first of a series...all great reads. Diana Gabaldon Outlander Series Stealing Heaven Katherine ...all my favorite books ....in that order! :-) Michelle |
| linda | Wed Nov 6 2002 01:57:35 |
| Dear Michelle....thanks for the names of various books...coincidentally, a friend gave me a couple of the Outlander books this summer and I didn't realize that they were that good. So I will dip in....let you know when I finish....Linda |
| Renwick | Wed Nov 6 2002 17:32:44 |
|
Judy Yes, it was stated by some individual in his or her genealogy that Catherine was Hugh's third wife. They gave no source. I am trying to locate that post again but so far I have not been able to find it. So, I thought that I would pass it by you for your opinion. Quite often those doing their family genealogy make some pretty flagrent mistakes. Maybe they were referring to Catherine being John's third wife? Wick |
| Kate | Thu Nov 7 2002 19:36:53 |
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Another book recommendation for Linda. My all time favorite - "The Sunne in Spendour" by Sharon Kay Penman. Deals with the War of the Roses, the reign of Edward IV and the much maligned Richard III. I highly recommend this wonderful book. Kate |
| M&M | Fri Nov 8 2002 15:45:28 |
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Kate, I'm friends with the woman that edits Sharon Kay Penman's books! I tried the series on Wales but to be honest I couldn't get into them. Makes me a little sad. However, I know tons of people that just love her books. M&M |
| JADE WOOD | Tue Nov 12 2002 18:02:55 |
| please unsubscribe me! |
| Rebecca Cisco | Thu Nov 14 2002 02:54:15 |
| I've been reading your messages for sometime and really enjoy them. Katherine has gotten me through alot of rough times in my life. Picking up Anya Seton's book is like a security blanket to me. I'm sincerely jealous of anyone who's been to her tomb. It's my greatest hope to go there one day. I discovered that I'm one of her descendants too. It's cool to know there is alot of "family" out there that love her as much as I do. I enjoyed the comment from the girl that said she even looks like her. I have the auburn hair and dark grey eyes too. I have been able to relate to her so much in my life. From the rough unkind first husband to being the mistress of the man I really have always loved. And to being at last married to that man. Hopefully I'll get to enjoy it longer than she did. I was wondering about Margaret, Ms. Seton never mentioned a third Swynford child. Does anyone know why this is? Did she not find the information on this child? And does anyone know if the part of Blanchette's disappearance and eventual reappearance is true? The strange thing is, I knew her story before I ever read it. I don't know how, but there are things that I really could tell were fabricated. Go figure. Anyway, I just am putting in my two cents worth and hoping to hear from many more who are obsessed with this fabulous woman and her life. Thanks so much for having this site. Sincerely, Becca |
| fabricio | Thu Nov 14 2002 11:36:46 |
| Osama Bin laden | Thu Nov 14 2002 11:40:04 |
|
are you afraid of bomb ? please turn of your body ! |
| supermen | Thu Nov 14 2002 11:42:04 |
| RC | Fri Nov 15 2002 02:25:54 |
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I guess we all have our hero's. I prefer Katherine. She was kind and very judged in HER life. I guess people have always saw it as their job to do that. I have another question, I was reading that Joan had two children with her first husband. She must've been very young. Was this another subject that Anya Seton left out? Did those children become of any consequence? I think it's impossibly sad that Katherine only had three years of marriage with John. Does anyone know where a person could find some literature of the local history of the Manor and Rectory of Kettlethorpe. Some brochures or something? Also, has anyone who's been to Lincoln Cathedral or Kettlethorpe, have any photo's of their experience. It would be wonderful to see them. Thanks again to all of you. |
| Renwick | Fri Nov 15 2002 12:36:50 |
|
According to my records Joan was married at the age of twelve or thirteen. She had her two daughters when she was about fourteen and fifteen and was widowed by seventeen or eighteen. I am not sure of what you mean when you say, "Anyone of consequence", coming from either daughter. I have nothing on Mary other than date and place of birth and I and my cousin Mona E. Mills descend from the other daughter, Elizabeth. I don't think that either of us has set the world on fire but I am old and she is still very young. I saw where Mona said that she thought that she looked like what she pictured Katherine looked like. Then offered her picture to those interested. Then she promptly forgot to include her e-mail address for those that wanted to see for themselves. I too picture Katherine as looking a lot like Mona does. But I am prejudice and find Mona breath taking. If anyone is interested in seeing her picture and drawing your own conclusion just write and I will e-mail her picture to you. My address is....wick52@hotmail.com |
| M&M | Fri Nov 15 2002 13:35:24 |
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Hi, Renwick I have that picture of Mona uploaded from when you sent it. It's right at the url below. No wonder John was smitten! :-) http://server103.hypermart.net/bogiebuddy/favorite_books/wick_52.jpg Michelle |
| Judy | Fri Nov 15 2002 20:55:21 |
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RC, The Manor and Rectory of Kettlethorpe is only available from some library in Lincolnshire AFAIK. The email link I had for it from somebody who actually obtained a photographic copy is no longer valid, so I'm stuck unless some kind soul has a better one. I have some geneaological info on Joan's children from her first marriage but not on me or with me. Bear with me and I'll try to get to it (email me at katheryn_swynford@yahoo.com if you don't hear from me for a while -- I still owe two other people some info but I'm pressed for time for a while and will dig it up when I have a chance -- Jeanette, you too!). --Judy |
| RC | Sat Nov 16 2002 02:03:41 |
| Thank you all so much for the information. I truly do appreciate it and please forgive me for sticking my foot in my mouth. I'll try to be better. Promise!!!! God I wish I had a nickle for everytime I've said that. It is nice to hear the input from all of you and I am taking notes. This is so interesting. And I'm really curious obout Mona! She sounds amazing. |
| Jenn | Mon Dec 2 2002 17:09:09 |
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@Judy
No worries!! I've been meaning to mail you anyway to say that I'm a complete wally and of course I have the reference Galway made to the Blanche in the wardrobe accounts being Blanche Swynford! @RC I received a photocopy of Cole's, The Manor and Rectory of Kettlethorpe from Lincoln Central Library (it is published in Lincolnshire Architectural Societies Report Vol 31) via my university library. Maybe they will send a copy to you, either direct or through a local library? I can't remember how much they charged but it wasn't much, just a couple of pounds to cover photocoping costs. Might be worth contacting them to find out - I should imagine that email details for them are available on the web. Jenn |
| Jenn | Mon Dec 2 2002 17:17:19 |
|
Wick
I have not come across any reference to Hugh having been married before Katherine but I guess it is possible although both his previous wives must have died quite soon after marriage to Hugh. I have come across reference to Katherine remarrying after the death of Gaunt though, to a chap called John Leech. This seems rather improbable to me, if only because of Katherine being termed Duchess of Lancaster on her tomb, and because her last years were spent in Lincoln, whereas Leech (or so the reference would have me believe) was a Norfolk landholder. Has anyone else come across this reference, and does anyone have any more info that could shed a bit more light on the situation? Jenn |
| Judy | Tue Dec 3 2002 00:14:15 |
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Jenn, Yes, sorry for the unconscionable delay. I have entered a 2nd Maser's program and am still teaching for our Computer Science Department, caring for twin 20-mo. olds... my brain gets rather scattered. I'm glad you have the Galway reference; I believe it may be in May McKisack's book as well.
I'd be interested in knowing your source for Katheryn's remarrying. It sounds doubtful to me as well, especially inasumuch as it may well have terminated her considerable dower rights from Gaunt (I suspect the crown would have been eager to see those back, although Henry did seem to have a fondness for her). Have you found anything related to her granddaughter Catherine Swynford? Judy |
| Jenn | Tue Dec 3 2002 16:25:49 |
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Sorry Judy - a reference would have helped!! Here it is - Blomefield, A County History of Norfolk. This work is in several volumes, and the number of volumes seems to alter per edition hence no volume ref or page number but the reference is under the section about the parish of Aylsham. I wouldn't bother searching it out unless you can get a copy easily - Blomefield merely states that after the death of Gaunt, K inherited Aylsham for life and that he assumes that she must have remarried as the records also show Aylsham being held at this time by Katherine, wife of John Leech.
And beyond a couple of web references to Thomas S having a daughter named after his mother and her marrying.... erm.. William Drury (?) I have not really found anything out about her namesake... not sure whether I shall devote any energy at this time to her but I'm sure some time in the future curiosity will get the better of me!! My real effort at the moment is in trying to track down K's will... It's a complete mystery. A woman of her import should surely have had her will recorded, if not where it was proved (Lincoln) then in the Canterbury records but nothing!! I've contacted a number of people who are more in the know than me when it comes to this sort of thing but they have drawn blanks too.... :( |
| Judy | Thu Dec 5 2002 19:23:00 |
|
Jenn,
Just a thought, but try maybe Winchester (particularly if you can get somebody *else* to do it). I'm not certain what her will would show. Certainly, she is not likely to have had much money of her own (Cardinal Beaufort's biographer, G. L. Hariss, notes that one reason Henry Beaufort did what he could to augment his Beauforts' fortunes was that Thomas et al 'could not have had an expectation' of receiving much from the hands of their mother -- sorry; don't have the page # for this because either I forget to photocopy the section or, more likely, I haven't entered it into my database yet). Perhaps finding the will would solve the issue of Blanche and what happened to her (if she didn't predecease Katheryn) and perhaps Margaret as well. It's not clear that Payne had any significant patrimony of his own and even if he did, he had a son to whom it could descend. One doesn't know whether Walter (Payne's son) had any children, but the finding of Roet arms painted on the ceiling of Old St. Paul's seems suggestive. --Judy |
| Carol | Sat Dec 14 2002 16:03:05 |
| I bought my copy of Anya Seton's book "Katherine" at an auction when I was 16. I am now 45 and still reread it on occasion. She has always fascinated me and I mentioned to my daughter this morning that I had been on the Internet looking for more information about Katherine. She said, "Mom, you are the only person I know who would care!" This message board certainly proves her wrong! Very interesting reading, here! By the way, I am from a little town in Kentucky. |
| Kate Head | Sat Dec 14 2002 17:48:23 |
|
Hello everybody...here's a thing, we all love KS and are intrigued by her etc etc BUT does anybody else find it strange that other royal mistresses have been or still are much maligned? I can't imagine the public taking kindly to a certain prince of ours marrying his lady. Hey ho. Just a thought. KS was slated by her peers though, so maybe its the distance of time that makes people more accepting!!? Now I'm going cross-eyed!
Kate |
| Judy Perry | Mon Dec 16 2002 20:32:51 |
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Well, Kate, just a few off the top of my head... Mistresses simply HAD to be evil! The King ruled by the grace of God, and therefore as long as he hadn't done anything sufficiently bad to earn the distinction of the country being placed under papal interdict (?), God had to be okay with the King himself. Therefore, if the little people had any gripes, to whom could they attribute problems with the King's rule? Clearly, the problem had to be a grasping, rapacious mistress or other evil influence. The fact that more than a few WERE didn't help matters any (Alice Perrers certainly comes to mind). Some mistresses even -- like Katheryn to an extent -- displaced the man's proper lady, and, while it was tolerated that he have mistresses, still everyone expected to see the Queen or Duchess or what have you presiding with the man at the public table (one of the things noted of Gaunt is that he went touring his properties with Katheryn while Constance was stuck heaven-knows-where, largely ignored; Henry II even locked up Eleanor of Aquitaine but sometimes felt the pressure to let her out for Christmas festivities, Rosamund Clifford notwithstanding).
Why do we care about Katheryn, even more than we would, say, about Alice Perrers or Rosamund Clifford or Mary Boleyn... Well, maybe the political conservatives are correct in noting that character matters. Still, I suspect the fact that the story had a happen ending helps rather alot in endearing us to the tale. We can like both of them. We can be happy that all turned out well and that Katheryn got the chance to (albeit discretely) thumb her nose at her detractors and see her children live marry well, which is about all that could be expected. And she seemed to be a genuinely decent person -- that is, Gaunt's children liked her and nobody really has anything bad to say about her aside from her being with Gaunt. Dunno... just my rambling thoughts.. --Judy |
| Jenn | Tue Dec 17 2002 08:54:25 |
|
Yeah, I'd say that Judy was pretty much right there - mistresses (of kings certainly) were an easy target to blame when things went wrong - BUT it's interesting to note that quite often the criticism was of the man rather than the woman (although Alice Perrers is probably an exception here). For example Walsingham's criticism of Katherine isn't actually based on anything she did/said/looked like etc - she was just another stick with which he could berate Gaunt, another demonstartion of how Gaunt wasn't fit to have any sort of power. This is particularly noticeable when comparing the way Walsingham wrote about Alice (whom he personally castigated) with the way he wrote about Katherine, and also in the passage about Gaunt casting off Katherine, in which the duke is portrayed as improving his character - very much a clerical idea of casting off the sinful woman to see the light but with no real attempt made to deflame Katherine's character.
But it has to be the 'happy ending' of the marriage that makes Katherine so popular, although as I'm typing this I think its probably more the longevity of the relationship rather than the marriage in itself - sign of true devotion and all that romantic stuff!!! For me personally, she is an interesting character for what she can tell us about medieval culture and society in general, the way people interacted with each other and the cultural icons of the day etc etc but I guess thats the nosey historian in me!!! :) |
jenn 
| Mon Dec 23 2002 14:30:10 |
|
Hi everybody
I just wanted to wish all Katherine fans out there a very Merry Christmas!!! J x |
| Kate H | Tue Dec 24 2002 21:28:12 |
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Happy Christmas, and a safe and Happy New Year to you all!!
Kate |
| Judy | Mon Dec 30 2002 01:11:38 |
|
Seasons Greetings to everyone!
Someone accidentally sent me mail about Katheryn and it included this link: http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/biography/mackethan_2.htm. Seems somebody is doing a biography of the Setons -- Ann, later Anya, her father and mother, all of whom were apparently quite gatsby-esque and rather peripatetic. Anyway, this woman notes that one main feature of Ann's writing was that her heroines were always (or mostly) homebuilders (in stark contrast to Ann herself). This got me to thinking back on why we all like the story so much. Even for those of us historical researchers, how much is what we *see* dependant upon this characterization of Katheryn by Ann? Just a thought to toss out while I'm busy grading essays and term papers like a madwoman... Judy |
| Kate | Thu Jan 2 2003 19:02:59 |
|
"Periapatetic" - wow good word! Such fun to say out loud. I'd never heard it before so had to look it up. Two meanings; 1) a follower of Aristotle or adherent of Aristotelisanism; or 2) movement or journey hither and thither
Just thought I'd share in case anyone else was interested. Happy New Year to everyone. Kate |
| tracy | Thu Jan 2 2003 19:56:42 |
|
I just finished reading Katherine by Anya Seton and i must say it's the most interesting book i've ever read. I only wish that there was more about the relationship between Chaucer and Katherine. Is there little about it becuase there is little known on the topic, or is there a way that i could learn more about it?
-Tracy |
| Judy | Fri Jan 3 2003 01:46:39 |
|
Tracy,
There's a huge amount of speculation but very little which is verifiable. In the late 1800s through 1930s/40s Chaucer life researchers saw the influence of John of Gaunt in every other line Chaucer wrote -- The Troilus & Crisseyde was about Gaunt & Katherine, with Chaucer as Pandarus; The Parliament of the Fowls (I think; it's been a while) in which the author is awakened by a screaming bird of sorts represents his wife, Philippa (Katherine's sister) of whom Chaucer was supposedly not fond; Chaucer supposedly wrote about unfaithful women because he was only too aware that Gaunt had affairs with not only Katherine but Philippa as well (and possibly contemporaneous, despite the fact the Church would have burned them all for it)... See especially John M. Manly and Margaret Galway, although most biographies of Chaucer through the 1970s will carry much the same rubbish. Having smirked through all this, however, it should be pointed out that there is a marked continuance of familial interrelationships between the Chaucers (especially Thomas, Geoffrey's son), Beauforts, Swynfords and Plantagenets. Philippa was present at the confraternity-joining ceremony involving Swynfords & Beauforts; Thomas Chaucer does his parliamentary best in supporting not only the new Plantagent kingship of Henry IV but also his (or Henry Vs) Chancellor, cousin Henry Beaufort and also cousin John Beaufort (who had been entrusted with defending Richard II if I recall properly). There are other specifics I would have to look up in my box of stuff which I plan to dig out this month... This would seem to suggest a solid sense of family which could very well have come from childhood. Sorry, best I can do... Judy |
| Ramona | Mon Jan 6 2003 19:36:13 |
| Tracy | Tue Jan 7 2003 03:15:34 |
| Judy- thanks for answering my question i really appreciate it. |
| Fran | Fri Jan 10 2003 00:23:58 |
| Linda | Sat Jan 11 2003 03:56:49 |
| Did anyone ever come across any paintings of Katherine....and what she looked like? I saw the picture of Mona....the descendent of Katherine...it was mentioned earlier on in these correspondences (see Renwick) and everytime I look at it I imagine it to what Katherine might have looked like....Of course....lots of 'descending' has occurred over the years...so I am curious if some pictoral record of Katherine's face actually exists? |
| Judy | Sat Jan 11 2003 17:19:10 |
|
Linda. The answer is apparently "No". There is a guess that perhaps the woman located in the lower left-hand corner of the Troilus Frontispiece MS is Katherine; others argue differently. There is also a carving the 'size of a walnut' at Canterbury Cathedral which one writer has supposed may be Katherine. There was also the image on her memorial brass, now destroyed; but such things tended to be generic representations at best. She may also be depicted unnamed in the MS illuminations accompanying Froissart's Chronicles depicting the marriage of Richard II and Isabella of France (Katherine was the first lady at the time and escorted Isabella to England), but even these illustrations are not true portraiture. I have some of these illustrations up at www.katherineswynford.net with more to come as time permits. Hope this helps, and if anyone has any additional to add, please let me know! --Judy |
| linda | Sat Jan 11 2003 22:04:00 |
|
Thanks for the information, Judy....
I have often wondered why Hollywood has never taken it upon themselves to make a movie of this incredible story....and this intriguing time in History. I have fun thinking about who would play Katherine and John, and of course, all the others. Many names enter my mind but I think, if it were in my power (Ha), I would select some totally unknown actors to act out this story. Somehow, Brad Pitt or Julia Roberts just don't cut it in this situation....Any opinions on this? |
| Judy | Sun Jan 12 2003 01:45:26 |
|
Linda -- well, of course, self-appointed "real historians" seriously cringe at the prospect of Hollywood doing any "history". I've personally never understood this. Of course, Seton has some inaccuracies IMHO. Of course there were inaccuracies in Braveheart. Who cares? Seton's novel has brought more people to Katherine Swynford and her world than all the dullest articles in Speculum combined. Braveheart made people want to learn about Edward I, William Wallace and the Bruce when they otherwise just didn't care about the dusty tales of history (and didn't you just have to love Patrick McGoohan as Edward I, history-be-damned?!). Some 'inspired' works can be just plain bad (all the horrific bodice-ripping novels set in the window dressing of era X come to mind) but the others that are mostly well-done probably do much to help transmit the knowledge of history. And what would these purists -- some of whom are Chaucerians and Shakespeareans -- think about Chaucer ripping off, oh, I forget who and Shakespeare's appropriation of Antony & Cleopatra, to say nothing of all his "history" plays... As for who, I guess I'm too old to see Brad Pitt/Ben Affleck/whoever as Gaunt. I'd have liked to have seen Richard Burton as Gaunt. Ben Cross? For Katherine? Hmmmm... my knee-jerk reaction is to suggest Kate Winslet, but that's too obvious as she's already the period-piece princess. Emma Thompson, but ageing her down might be difficult (and mind you, she may be younger than I). Nicole Kidman? I think she could portray the spiritedness... Glenda Jackson perhaps a couple of decades ago... I dunno.. with 2-yr. old twins I don't get out much @;-) Okay, I'll leave you all now to finish your laugh-fest... --Judy |
| Carol | Sun Jan 12 2003 03:53:40 |
|
Casting Katherine would be difficult (my beautiful 27 year old daughter comes to mind, she has thick reddish locks down to her hiney, but blue eyes not grey and is not an actress, a mere musician) and I also could not stomach Julia Roberts or Gywneth Paltrow portraying our Katherine. Gaunt? hmmm...I just don't keep up with actors much, yeah, unknowns might be best.
However, I recently was seduced into the remake of "The Forsyte Saga" which was shown on Public TEEVEE in the states this last fall. I'm old enough (51) to remember the first B&W production in the late sixties and for some reason have been completely obsessed by Galsworthy ever since. Weird, cause I'm a late 20th century product and a Californian to boot. Right away, the casting had me ticked off ("Irene had dark gold hair and brown eyes, dang it!" I hollered at the set) yet the actress who portrayed her had black hair and blue eyes, was totally convincing and in the end pulled it off. Also, the Soames character was all wrong to me at first after the portrayal by the original BBC guy (Eric something?) yet he was thin-lipped repressed perfection as the "Man of Property". A wonderful book, "Possession" was recently subjected to the Hollywood treatment and I refused to see it. Although I usually shine on reviews, they were all so unfavorable and I loved the book so much that I refused to see it. On the other side I am amazed that "Lord of the Rings" which seemed to defy any translation to the screen came off basically faithful to the books (which I have reread every few years since I was a teen)...I would hate to see Katherine's story become a bad movie. I live in Northern California, which is a different planet than Southern California, am Not writing a screenplay and so have no input on the scene. Hey, I got it, Katherine should be portrayed by a clone of Katherine Hepburn and Rita Hayworth! |
| Fran | Tue Jan 14 2003 23:57:43 |
| Sassy | Mon Jan 27 2003 14:59:01 |
|
Hi Everyone
I first read Katherine oh I don't know how many years ago and am now on my 4th paperback edition - hate the new cover which came out a couple of years ago by the way - a photograph of a simpering ninny! I much prefer the very old one that had her dipicted sat by a window or mirror-glass - I can't remember which. Or the one with her and John of Gaunt on the front. Her story has always stuck in my mind and it is still difficult for me to separate fact from fiction when I read it. I visit and re-visit this site and have never left a message. Well, now I will - thank you to all of you who post such wonderful pieces of history on it. I come from Lincoln and go back to the Cathedral & Katherine's tomb each time I visit my mother (I admit I don't pay the entrance fee each time - how dare they charge to enter a church!)and feel very lucky to come from such an historical place. Are you aware that the oriel window in Pottergate at the eastern end of the catherdral is supposed to be her house? I can't remember which church official's house it forms part of (not the dean or bishop) but my sister's friend used to live there and I have a clear memory of once looking out of the window. When I walk through Exchequer Gate, or Pottergate or up Steep Hill I think of Katherine walking before me. But then I always have flights of fancy like that! The same with Elizabeth I and Catherine de Medici! If anyone is interested in pursuing the Julian of Norwich line, there is an execellent site at http://www.oldcity.demon.co.uk/norwich/historic/names/julian.html - it has links to other sites as well. Although no believer myself, when I read her I wish I could believe. And no, no films please! Look what they did to Forever Amber! |
| Judy | Mon Jan 27 2003 22:41:39 |
|
Sassy,
Yes, Katherine died in the house belonging to the Dean and Chapter of Lincoln. Parliament was held in that building as well (I think Edward I held it there?). Judy |
| M&M | Tue Jan 28 2003 03:05:34 |
|
Sassy,
Hopefully you will visit this site again soon. I'm leaving for London in a couple of weeks (Feb. 13) and would love to see Lincoln Cathedral. Is it possible to get there with public transportation from London and get off pretty near the church? I've been to London twice before but only ventured outside the city on day tours. If you do see this and would be so kind to email me, I would be very appriciative. Thanks, Michelle lolmichelle@yahoo.com |
| Maria | Wed Feb 5 2003 07:43:11 |
| I, too, raced into mists of time thirstily seeking Katherine and John, berating myself that I had once lived in England and hadn't absorbed the love life of John of Gaunt! Being an astrologer, references therein to this ancient divination pleased me no end. It mentions "his horoscope show him much afflicted by Saturn". My thoughts are that he must have been afflicted by Uranus too, the planet of the sudden and unexpected. As for the energies between John and his lovedy, oh my, my imagination could get the better of me on that one. There are not many love stories like their. I'm planning on a trip to England to make a pilgrimage along the paths of their lives: Lincolnshire, Norfolk and Warwickshire, etc.; I'll take you all with me in my heart. It was amazing to see us enthralled to the degree that we are. But for a wonderful and true love story, then why the heck not! |
| Jenny | Sat Feb 8 2003 04:22:01 |
|
I'm reading (almost finished) Katherine by Anya Setton. I wish to learn more about Katherine, and I have curiosity to see a painting, statue or anything else that may give me an idea of how she looked. I will appreciate any links or websites you may provide. Thanks
Jenny |
| Judy | Sun Feb 9 2003 01:57:53 |
|
Jenny -- See my response to Linda above. There really isn't anything terribly reliable but if you come to my website you'll see a couple of images which *may* be of her: www.katherineswynford.net. Best, Judy |
| Becca | Sun Feb 9 2003 20:07:01 |
|
Judy, I loved your site. Thanks for sharing it with us. I've been obsessed by Katherine for years, since I was really young, and she's my 18th grandmother. Now my entire family has gotten involved and read the Anya Seton book and are telling me how much they picture her to look as I do. It's interesting because Mona (ask Renwick-scroll up for picture. He's super nice) looks quite a bit like I do too and she's a descendant. So, like many fanciful people before me, I feel that part of her mind lives on in mine.
This made Maria's remarks really interesting to me also. Love to read everyone's thoughts on her. I check this site everytime anyone says anything just because it's fun. Keep the conversation going everyone, you are such interesting people, with such interesting ideas. I hunger for anything new about Katherine. Best wishes to all, Becca PS We should all get a group together to pay costs and go see all the "Katherine Site" that we can. Wouldn't that be FUN????????!!!! |
| Becca | Sun Feb 9 2003 20:09:35 |
| I meant Katherine Sites. Slip of the old ring finger. BC |
| Anne | Mon Feb 17 2003 23:29:18 |
|
Hello all Kathryn fans:
I, too, read Seton's Katherine when I was in my teens (now almost 50). Not only did I fall in love with K and J, I knew immediately that I had lived at that time and was in some way related. As an adopted child, my birth records are incomplete and I have not been able to trace my roots. But I felt an instant connection and as a result, I have been researching medieval history in Britain for over 30 years. One of the greatest books I have read is Agnes Strickland's "Lives of the Queens of England" Volume One, which gives us lots of info on the times, etc...but of course, no Kathryn. It was super to find this site and I will follow all of your leads and check out other recommended sites and books. Books on Chaucer gave me some insight but never enough! In regards to a film, I always thought it would be a super idea. There seems to be resurgence of period peices and what better way to exemplify" Thou shalt have kings though thou be none" than personifying their story. Every british king from 1399 and onwards, was related to K and J. I have often though that Jodie Foster, with grey contacts and some reddish highlights would make a perfect Kathryn. Thanks for all your efforts on Kathryn; I will continue to tune in regularyly. Anne |
| Beth | Thu Feb 20 2003 16:40:47 |
| Sandra Gruenewald | Fri Feb 28 2003 10:47:51 |
|
I´m a german fan of John of Gaunt and Katherine Swynford!
Just read Anya Seton´s book - very fascinating... To update my homepage about JoG, I will visit England in March 2003 - Lincoln and Kenilworth... is it worth to take a look also to Kettlethorpe? Does anybody knows how I can get the biography of John of Gaunt by Sidney Armitage-Smith? Greetings from Germany, Sandra www.sandria.de greenleyhunt@yahoo.co.uk |
| Anne | Fri Feb 28 2003 15:49:49 |
|
Hello Sandra from Germany: I got John of Gaunt from my local library. However, you may want to check Amazon.com or even Used/OUT OF PRINT books at indigochapeters.com.
Cheers! Anne |
| Sassy | Sat Mar 1 2003 15:47:58 |
|
Hi Sandra from Germany
Yes it is worth taking the trip out to Kettleworth - okay, so apart from the ruined gateway not much else from Katherine's time exists. The church has been rebuilt, Hugh's tomb is not the original. BUT you are at Kettlethorpe - the site of Katherine's home. The views (minus the houses) are her views, fields are her fields, you will be walking in her footsteps - and that's what history is about. etc. And when you travel from Lincoln to Kettlethorpe, imagine the roads as muddy tracks - that'll help you understand how far from 'civilisation' Katherine (and many others of her time) really was. Enjoy! |
| Sandra | Sun Mar 2 2003 00:22:32 |
|
Tanks a lot for your tips!
When my Homepage is updated with the new photos from JoG and KS, I will inform you... Sandra |
| Judy | Sun Mar 2 2003 21:48:14 |
|
Hi Sassy, Do you have any photos of Hugh's rebuilt tomb? I just wonder how much is original and how much of that might resemble the tomb at Spratton of perhaps a distant cousin John Swynford, whose alabaster effigy sports perhaps the first known use of the Lancastrian SS collar. One bit of trivia for these two Swyhnfords -- both were in Gaunt's service and both died at roughly the same time. Does the church or anyone in the locale have any early water colors or pencil/pen sketches of the church's interior prior to being 'fixed-up'? REG Cole reproduced two watercolors, one of the exterior of the church prior to rebuilding, but I got it by way of a photocopy, so it's not that great looking if you know what I mean... Judy |
| Mona E. Mills | Mon Mar 3 2003 09:20:29 |
|
Judy,
Could you please explain to me what the Lancastrian SS collar was. Also, does anyone have a picture of Catherine's tomb in the Lincoln Cathedral that they could e-mail me as an attachment. I would be forever greatful. I have been trying to sweet talk a friend in London to drive up there, pay the entrance fee and take some pictures of it for me. It is difficult to charm a man that far away from where I live. I just found out an interesting genealogical fact. Catherine is my great great (18) and (19) mother through two different lines stemming from Joan, one being by Robert de FERRERS and the other being by Ralph De NEVILLE. While I am happy that Catherine is my direct descendant, I can not say the same about John. I feel that John must have been a real JERK. You have to be an unsensitive clod to get the people you rule to hate you as much as the citizens of London seemed to have hated him. Am I alone or do other share my feelings on that subject? Mona Mona |
| M&M | Tue Mar 4 2003 00:11:36 |
|
Hello All!
I got back last week from London, I did't make it to Lincoln. :-( I kept all my emails that some of you graciously sent, since DH and I want to do a car trip there in a couple of years with the boys. I will get there for sure by car. We did Cantebury Cathedral,Dover,Leeds Castle,Tower of London, National Gallery, Victoria & Albert, Science Museum, The British History Musuem, Westminster Abby and St. Pauls, oh and St. Martins. Honest to God I never missed a ten year old mini-van loaded with labrador hair so much in my life! It's my third trip to the Tower of London and there are two things that are there that amaze me. First John of Gaunts armour-he was sooooo tall! And the chopping block Lord Lovett lost his head on, if you have read the Gabaldon Outlander series you will know why thats important! *g* Then I came home to read another wonderful historical novel, fictional characters though. The Bronze Horseman by Paullina Simons...I highly recommend it! In closing can I just say...I'm confused! :-) Is all of Katherines tomb there or just some of it and all of Joans? I thought her son was there too. Michelle |
| Becca | Tue Mar 4 2003 03:49:42 |
|
Mona,
I have to say that i also think that John must've been pretty stinky, or at least that he was terribly arrogant. But there must've been a good side to him too that maybe only those close to him ever got to see. I also think he was much maligned by his younger brothers who were very jealous of him and wanted to be in control of young King Richard. It would have been a hard position to be in. Still, he could probably have been alot nicer and have done something to boost his popularity. If there's any truth to the story that Katherine just disappeared from him when the Savoy burned and he didn't go after her to find out what happened, then he really was an insensitive clod. |
| Susan | Tue Mar 4 2003 08:37:28 |
|
Hi Michelle
Glad you had a good trip! Katherine is buried in Lincoln Cathedral along with Joan - the tomb was badly damaged in the Reformation but it's still there. I'm not sure where the remainder of the offspring are buried but I know that Henry who became Bishop of Winchester is buried in Winchester Cathedral. The authorities have placed a statue of Joan of Arc nearby because he was on the panel that condemned her to death!! Susan |
| Anne | Tue Mar 4 2003 16:34:46 |
|
Hello all:
John's biggest disappointment in life was the fact that he was not in line for the throne. He was certainly qualified as a soldier and statesman plus he was probably the wealthiest knight in England at the time. I think he wanted to do the right thing by his nephew, Richard III and had a real struggle mentally. I think the greatest thing he did was marry Katherine, a commoner, knowing that while it would completely destroy his chances, it gave his bastard children a chance to succeed. Until Richard married the French princess, Katherine was the first lady in England. I think he finally realized that love was bigger than his his desire for the throne. He must have been happy to know that he had daughters on the thrones of Castile and Portugal. I think John always struggled between what he wanted and the desire to do the right thing. I admire him. I also think that Katherine could not have married him just to legitimize her children...there was more than that. I look forward to everyone's comments on this. |
| Judy | Tue Mar 4 2003 17:02:50 |
|
Michelle, Katherine & Joan's tomb are missing their decorative brass components -- those thing which would have included a generic female image as well as colored heraldry. What you will see if you get there is two stone boxes with indents for where the metal would have been. Joan's alabaster effigy is at Staindrop Church Durham. Anthony Goodman notes that she wasn't content to be buried alongside Wife #1 (Margaret Stafford IIRC) and 'so chose to show her respect for her mother by being buried along side her' (not an exact quote but the gist of it). Thomas or John was buried at Bury St. Edmonds; I'd have to look it up though. Mona & Anne: John of Gaunt was a complex character. It needs to be remembered that he could be scapegoated for whatever went wrong in the early years of Richard's reign whether he was responsible for it or not. Also, there were religious quabbles and turf wars going on that made him unpopular with the clergy at times -- at least some of the fires of the Peasant's Revolt were fanned by these. Read Sydney Armitage-Smith's & Anthony Goodman's biographies if you really want to understand John of Gaunt (as far as it is possible at this 600+ year distance). And if you'll read earlier posts, I really doubt that John just 'abandoned' Katherine. It's not as if she was cut off and left penniless and shunned by the Lancastrian family; she's simply transferred out of Gaunt's childless-household (Elizabeth, whose behavior certainly indicated she could have used a few more years in the ducal nursery with a firm hand on her, still was too old to have a 'governess' and Philippa was about to go off to Portugal) to Gaunt's daughter-in-law's household instead. Well -- child #1 is crying; gotta run... Judy |
| Sandra | Wed Mar 5 2003 11:08:08 |
|
Hi all !
I really think, that John loved Katherine, but imagine also, that in this time, an unmarried woman with "Bastard"-children was really worth nothing! So I think, that it was ALSO reasonably that they got married (because of their children) Is it really true, that in the Tower of London I can see John´s armour??? |
|
Sandra Germany
| Wed Mar 5 2003 13:31:47 |
|
it ist true !
see the link: http://www.watson.vampires.co.uk/london4.htm |
| Mona E. Mills | Wed Mar 5 2003 19:58:08 |
|
Sandra,
How tall is B.J.? That was a very impressive picture. I really like this board. I am sorry if I am hard on John. I know that you all are right. It was a different time and conditions. Mona |
| M&M | Thu Mar 6 2003 00:07:51 |
|
I believe the sign on the armor at the Tower of London said he was 6'7". Thats why the armor was displayed it was the tallest one they had, it was right next to the smallerst a childs armor.
Heres the pic http://server103.hypermart.net/bogiebuddy/favorite_books/johnofgaunt.jpg Michelle |
| Anne | Thu Mar 6 2003 00:59:49 |
|
Hello all:
I didn't realize John was that tall. I can only imagine how tall his brother Lionel was..he was mentioned as being a gentle giant and the tallest of all Edward III and Philippa's children. Mind you, they are descended from Edward Longshanks, so they came by it honestly! Love all the info, everyone, and always look forward to an update! Anne |
| Becca | Thu Mar 6 2003 02:02:06 |
|
Does anyone have any idea how tall Katherine was? I always imagined her as pretty tall. I believe John loved her with all his heart. Maybe just because it makes me happy to think so. I just went back and read. I think John probably didn't abandon Katherine. I think they married for love and for the love of their children. There's just things we'll never have the answers too.
Is there anything remaining on Katherine's tomb at all? Thanks for all the answers. B |
| Maria | Thu Mar 6 2003 07:03:34 |
| M&M thank you so very much for providing the picture. It's a delight to just point and click and vavooom, there's the photograph. John must have been a veritable giant in those days for smaller men. Thanks also to Melanie, from way back, who provided the URL for the Chaucer frontispiece, and for the Kettlethorpe photo. |
|
Sandra Germany
| Thu Mar 6 2003 07:37:25 |
|
A total different question:
how do you receive mails from others? For me, your e-mail adresses are not shown... ??? I´m also collecting photos about Katherine and John of Gaunt for my Homepage.... *cry* :-) Sandra |
| Susan2 | Thu Mar 6 2003 08:50:51 |
|
Hello,
I don't know if these websites will help with research or not, but here they are.. http://www.west-lindsey.gov.uk/Elected_Members/Documents/Parish_Clerks.htm <--- this gives a listing of the parish name, contact name with address and phone numbers.. (think of Kettlethorpe); - - - - http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/lccconnect/culturalservices/archives/home.htm <--- county archive.. - - - - - http://roeulx.free.fr/200historique.htm <-- this gives a history of Katherine's hometown.. - - - - http://www.hmc.gov.uk/abouthmc/about.htm <-- this will give you info about historical manuscripts; the commission was established in 1869. - - - Oh, another good website is: http://www.cv81pl.freeserve.co.uk/default.htm <-- here you can see excellent photos of Kenilworth Castle, Warwick Castle, etc. - - - - I just finished "Katherine" this evening.. have been a fan of Ms. de Roet for some time! (Btw, Anya Seton's "Green Darkness" is also based on real-life lovers Stephan Marsdon, a Benedictine monk and Celia de Bohun, a commoner. Celia's ancestors were no doubt the same Bohun's who figured in "Katherine").. Anyway, I've read all the posts here :-D I too was wondering "why" no one ever made a movie about "Katherine" (or "Green Darkness" ), but..some things are better left for OUR imaginations! |
| Sassy | Thu Mar 6 2003 13:31:43 |
|
Hi
FYI - 'Green Darkness' is set in Midhurst which is only 14 miles from me. The Castle is now in ruins but still exist and are open to the public. The hill where Stephen's hut was - St Anne's? I forget - is right nearby and the old pub where Celia briefly worked - the Spread Eagle - still exists. Midhurst is a lovely little town (unfortunately the A272 runs right through the middle of it!) and is worth a visit. Sassy |
| Kat | Thu Mar 6 2003 13:58:25 |
| Does anyone know anything about Anya Seyton herself?I can't find anything on the net. If anyone knows anything about I'd really appreciate it if they e-mailed me.Thanks |
| Trine | Thu Mar 6 2003 14:26:31 |
|
Hi Kat
Try Lucinda McKehtans Seton site on: http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/biography/mackethan.htm about not just Anya but also her father. Otherwise it is my wxperience that there is not much info about Anya Seton on the internet. Ann-Katrine |
| Maria | Thu Mar 6 2003 15:17:49 |
|
Sondra Germany my email address is mariafulton@isomedia.com Susan2-wow, more good stuff to feast my eyes on. Oh, what a special group we are!
Maria |
| M&M | Thu Mar 6 2003 17:33:41 |
|
I believe with this forum you need to just post your email in big message box for it to show...otherwise I havent a clue.
I have put all the Katherine related pics I have on my web page, and on that page is a link to Judy P's site with more research and yet even more pics than you can imagine. :-) I will post my site again its here.... http://server103.hypermart.net/bogiebuddy/favorite_books/katherineswynford.htm for just the pics go here. http://server103.hypermart.net/bogiebuddy/favorite_books/katherineimages.htm Hope this helps. Michelle lolmichelle@yahoo.com |
| Susan2 | Thu Mar 6 2003 19:57:37 |
|
I looked all over for info on Anya Seton, herself,
and came up with little. Anya was born in New York state.. Below are more links if you want to check out.. http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume5/236-237.htm <-- short bio on Anya Seton's father.. - - - - - - http://www.etsetoninstitute.org/CHRONDEE.HTM <--chronology of events of Ernest T. Seton, father of Anya Seton. --What a great man he must have been and no wonder we all fell in love with his daughter's writings.. - - - - - - http://hstg.b4dd.net/SiteTree/index.cgi/146 <-- website for Historical Society ofthe town of Greenwich, CT. There is a collection of Anya Seton's papers. - - - - http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/England/Lancaster/ <--- where-to info for books on The Lancastrian Kings... - - - - - http://www.ancestrees.com/pedigree/3546.htm#4 <-- I like this one because it lists the sources.. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who's been obsessed with Katherine and John... ;-D |
| Anne | Fri Mar 7 2003 00:28:02 |
|
Hi Susan2:
Thanks for the great info on Seton...what a man! Didn't realize that he lived over here in Canada. Also thanks for the great links. I am working on an oil painting and am depicting Katherine in her fur-trimmed apricot gown....I hope I can do her justice! Cheers! Look forward to more info..... |
| Anne | Fri Mar 7 2003 00:34:42 |
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Hi all:
One more thing....I have read all of Costain's books on the Plantagenets and they are a fabulous source of info on the 14th century...more of a documentary but many vauluable insights into the family. Cheers! Anne |
| Becca | Fri Mar 7 2003 03:48:34 |
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Anne,
I'd love to see that painting when you get it done. Is there any way you can let us see it? Thanx. B |
| Mona E. Mills | Fri Mar 7 2003 14:11:39 |
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I too would love to see that painting when it is done.
Becca can you write to me at monaatnight@hotmail.com cousin Renwick lost your address. Mona |
| Anne | Fri Mar 7 2003 16:16:29 |
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Hi Becca and Mona:
Now you have me entirely enthused...I am starting on my painting today...I think I will have her sitting by window casement watching for John to ride in. I'll keep you posted and later get it on-line. Cheers! Anne |
| Becca | Sat Mar 8 2003 04:50:41 |
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Anne,
That will be so wonderful. I can't wait to see it. I can see it in my mind already. Don't forget to let us see it. Mona, thanks so much, I'll write to you Sunday. It's late and I have to be out of town tomorrow. But I will write. Gotta sleep now. Becca |
| Dianne | Mon Mar 10 2003 02:29:40 |
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Right well beloved, we greet ye well!
I am a member of the King Richard 111 Society and a few years ago we had a talk and discussion from a very interesting man whose name I'm afraid I can't remember - about medieval souvenirs. He had a wonderful display of metal pins that he had found near pilgrimage sites and amongst them was a small ring, the metal had gone black but the little round stone was a brilliant blue! Lapis lazuli? He said he found it in Lincolnshire, a little place called Kettlethorpe......!!!! My heart started thumping and I asked him the date of it-"Oh around late 14th early 15th century" he casually replied! To this day I feel sick and disgusted with myself that I didn't buy it from him as he valued it at about £75 - but I just couldn't afford it at the time. Has anyone any knowledge of the story that Katherine's tomb was opened up at some point and she was perfectly preserved? Dianne. |
| Sassy | Mon Mar 10 2003 08:46:54 |
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Hi Dianne
I think you may have your Katherines muddled up. Katherine de Valois (wife of Henry V, wife of Owen Tudor and so ancestor of the Tudors) had her tomb opened up sometime in the 17th century - I think it was Pepys who wrote about it in his diary - and her body was found to be in a good state of preservation. Being from Lincoln, I can't see that the authorities at Lincoln Cathedral would ever have done this to Katherine Swynford's tomb and there is certainly no mention of it in any literature I've read. Bit of a bummer on the ring! Not too sure about the Richard III aspect though! :-) Sassy |
| Anne | Mon Mar 10 2003 16:41:21 |
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Hi all:
Been doing alot of research recently on Katherine and John and of course, on their offspring. An interesting note, the Beauforts were not legitimized with an eye to the throne as there was a clause in the process that stated that they were due all " dignities, honours, pre-eminencies, status, ranks and offices...as freely and lawfully as if they had been born in lawful wedlock "excepta dignitae regali" (excepting the royal dignity). Therefore, there was no reason for legitimization other than the fact that John married Katherine to give her and their family status. But, later in 1485, when Richard III and Henry VII met in war at Bosworth Feild, it was two descendants of the Beauforts fighting for the crown. This stuff is so amazing to me...the daughter of an impverished knight from Hainault is the great-grandmother of Kings! In the book it states" That the Beauforts were legitimized for only one reason...because John of Gaunt decided to marry his mistress." Book is "The Royal Bastards of Medieval England" by Chris Given-Wilson and Alice Curteis. |
| Dianne | Mon Mar 10 2003 18:04:36 |
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Hi Sassy!
Yes I thought it strange no one else had mentioned the opening of Katherine's tomb! Thank goodness it isn't true, it would have been sacrilige!!! As regards Richard 111, he was her great grand-son. If you (or anyone else) is interested I can passionatly recommend reading 'We Speak No Treason' by Rosemary Hawley Jarman - it is 3 people who narrate their experiences of King Richard 111, The Maiden, The Fool,The Man of Keen Sight and then back to the maiden who is now The Nun and sees Richard's body dragged back through Leicester after the Battle of Bosworth and goes mad .... she was the maiden who loved him all of her life.It's beautifully written and you feel as if you are there with them!!!!Cold shivers down my back! Regards, Dianne. |
| Judy | Mon Mar 10 2003 18:18:59 |
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Anne, This isn't quite true. From Samuel Bentley's "Exerpta Historica" (1831), p.153: "It has been generally considered that the instrument by which the Beauforts were legitimated contains a special exception with respect to the Royal dignity; but a very remarkable fact has been recently discovered on the subject. The patent, as originally granted, contains no such reservation, nor was it introduced into the copy which was entered on the Rolls of Parliament when it received the sanction of the legislature; but when Henry the Fourth exemplified and confirmed the grant of Richard to the Earl of Somerset in 1407, the words 'Exerpta dignitate regali,' appear to have been added to the enrolment of the grant on the patent Rolls,.. It escaped Henry, however, that the grant had become an act of Parliament, and that even if he had the right, of his own authority, to qualify a former grant, he could not interpolate a statute; so that in a legal view the addition to the patent of the 20 Ric. II. on the patent Rolls is of no effect". Judy |
| Judy | Mon Mar 10 2003 18:35:41 |
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Mona, The Lancastrian collar of 'esses' or SSS (think of a really big serpentine chain, perhaps half or more the width of a hand) was a heraldic device that individuals used to proudly indicate their association with the house of Lancaster. They are particularly numerous during the period of the Wars of the Roses (The Yorkists had their own collars of suns and something or other) such that at one time it was thought to have originated with Henry IV and that the "S" stood for "Sovereign". The finding of it on Sir John Swynford's 1372 tomb at Spratton seems to neatly squash that theory. And yes, you find it on alot of tombs. Judy |
| Kate | Mon Mar 10 2003 21:27:24 |
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Diane,
I, too, am a member of the Richard III Society and am a passionate defender of his innocence in the murder of his nephews. The whole topic is fasciniating! Thanks for the book recommendation. I've read "Daughter of Time" and "The Sunne in Splendour" - both fantastic! One question though. Richard's nephews were declared illigitimate when the fact of Edward IV's bigamous marriage to Elizabeth Woodville came to light. Richard then rightly assumed the throne. My question is, could Richard have declard them "legitmate" - as Richard II did with the Beauforts? Of course, if he had done that, could/would he have assumed the throne (is that the right term . . . "assume the throne"?). Kate |
| Dianne | Mon Mar 10 2003 21:59:37 |
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Dear Kate,
That's an interesting point! I don't know if he would have had the power to declare them legitimate, I presume it would have took a long debate by the Church etc of all the why's and wherefore's and in the end for a child to have been crowned he would have been back to square one - The Woodvilles trying to run the country. Perhaps he thought it best to leave things as they were. Anyway, There was always Clarence's son.... he never harmed him - did he? Regards, Dianne. |
| Anne | Tue Mar 11 2003 00:26:25 |
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Firstly, thank you, Judy, for the additional info on the legitimization of the Beauforts.
Richard wanted to be King, I assume, which is why legitimization never came up. I don't think he mudered his nephews, either, as Elizabeth Woodville would never have allowed them to be near him if she thought he would kill them. I liked the way it was handled in The Sunne in Splendor...definately a great book! Sharon Kay Penman also wrote a great trilogy on wales, France and England in the 1200's. Cheers! Anne |
| kate | Tue Mar 11 2003 18:15:38 |
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Diane,
No, Richard never harmed Clarence & Isabelle's son. But Henry VII killed him, along with anyone else who had the remotest claim to the throne, after Richard was killed at Bosworth. Anne - I'd love to read the trilogy you referred to! Can you tell me the titles? Kate |
| Anne | Wed Mar 12 2003 00:21:18 |
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Hi Kate:
Sharon Kay Penman is the author and the books are: Here Be Dragons Falls the Shadow The Reckoning They take place starting from the time of King John, mainly about his illegitimate daughter, Joanna, in Wales...then on to Simon de Montfort and his wife, Eleanor, sister to Henry III and then back to Wales about Lleweylen and Nell, Eleanor's daughter, around the the same period but a little later in Edward the 1st's time. They are fascinating and I love all her books! Enjoy! Anne |
| Dianne | Wed Mar 12 2003 00:27:55 |
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Kate,
Yes, Henry was a very worried man wasn't he? He dated his reign to the day before Bosworth therefore making all who fought for Richard traitors, he surrounded himself with guards ( the Yeoman of the Guard - Beefeaters) and any one with the slightest link to York was killed off, including the 90 year old Katherine, Countess of Desmond. We seem to be straying off the subject somewhat! Remember Katherine Swynford anyone??? Isn't it strange how you read about some-one and they take over your life? Do you think we all knew Katherine in a former life and we are bound together for eternity....!!! (Read 'Green Darkness' by Anya Seton) |
| Anne | Wed Mar 12 2003 00:38:47 |
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Dianne:
You are soooo right about feeling close to Katherine. I love all these other topics as well because it gives so much insight into what went before and came after her time. From everything I have read about Henry VII, even though he was related to the Beauforts through Margaret, he was not a nice man. He didn't treat poor Elizabeth of York very nicely, she died young and it seems he only married her to solidify his claim to the throne. I was thinking yesterday about how much better we have it in the 21st century,,,I mean plumbing, heat, etc, never mind careers and our choice of partners! I would have hated to be a baby machine for someone I didn't like! And dying in childbirth...well, it was a regualr part of medieval life! On that cherry note... Cheers! Anne |
| Sara | Wed Mar 12 2003 17:42:30 |
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Hello Everyone.
Small fan here in the American South of Katherine. I read the book years ago, back when I was 14 and discovered it in my late Grandma's book collection. I wanted to share a painting with you by Sir Frank Dicksee that I came upon a long time ago. It's a pretty popular painting, entitled "La Belle Dame Sans Merci." But the moment I saw it, I immediately thought of John and Katherine. Just wanted to know if anyone else came across the painting as well, or knows what I'm talking about! http://www.cottingleyglen.com/images/al_c029_dicksee_frank__la_belle_dame_sans_merci.jpg Sara |
| Anne | Wed Mar 12 2003 21:01:21 |
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Hi all:
If you are interested, the poem "La Belle Dame Sans Merci" by Keats is available at the following web site...lovely and haunting. Thanks, Sara, for the beautiful image of Katherine it conjured up!! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/8325/labelledame.html Cheers! Anne |
| Dianne | Thu Mar 13 2003 00:19:36 |
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Sara,
Thank you so much for telling us about that beautiful painting - I've printed it off and will rush out tomorrow to get a lovely frame for it!! |
| Carol | Thu Mar 13 2003 01:52:48 |
| So did I! |
| Kate | Thu Mar 13 2003 18:25:52 |
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What a beautiful picture. It is exactly as I would have imagined Katherine and John. Thanks for sharing it with us, Sara.
And, Anne, I loved the haunting poem by Keats. I just love how my intellect is broadened by all the interesting people on this board! You're a great group. Kate |
| Anne | Fri Mar 14 2003 01:08:37 |
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Hello all:
The picture motivated me into checking out other representations of medieval women...and amazingly enough, many were portrayed with red hair; in particular, the bad ones....I imagine that was how red hair was regarded back then! Poor Katherine! One of my favoutite sites is www.artmagic.com. Rossetti in particular had a mistress/wife, who he used as a model who, in some cases, evoked an image of Katherine for me. There are also a dozen different representations of La Belle Dame Sans Merci which were interesting. Thanks everyone for all the great info and other links. Anne PS I was reading backwards in this site and I was surprised to discover that Katherine went to live with Henry the IV to be's household when othr sources say Katherine and John split up. It sounds as though they never really did for which I am glad. The separation in the book bothered me because I could not imagine John renouncing Katherine...thanks, Judy! |
| Becca | Sat Mar 15 2003 02:19:34 |
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I have an enormous print of that painting hanging on my wall and two others by a painter named Edmund B. Leighton, one is "Godspeed" and the other I'm not sure of the title but it's a young (redhaired) queen knighting a young man. They are beautiful. I have large (huge prints) of each and they are in large antique gilted frames. I'll try to take some pictures of them and email anyone who wants to see them. Email me cisquette@hotmail.com All the women in these paintings are redheads. And they are very kind and flattering. Of course I'm partial to redheads being one myself. haha The Godspeed one really makes me think of Katherine.
Anne, thank you so much for putting the titles of those books on here. I'm always hungering for new books to hide my face in. Have a nice weekend everyone. Becca |
| Dianne | Wed Mar 19 2003 22:02:17 |
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Hi Becca,
The painting of the red-haired girl knighting the young man is called 'The Accolade' it's wonderful isn't it? They are on the web page www.artmagick.com that Anne mentioned. Does anyone have any ideas on what 'Jolie Coer' looked like? |
| M&M | Thu Mar 27 2003 00:25:55 |
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Holy John of Gaunt! :-)
For some odd reason Voy restored my Katherine Message Board! So if you want to take a peek and strike up a conversation .....feel free! Heres the URL: http://www.voy.com/29505/ Michelle |
| Susan2 | Fri Mar 28 2003 07:21:23 |
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Hello,
Someone 'above' wondered if we all had links to Katherine and John, since we're all so fascinated by them.. There is nothing more powerful than a great love, is there not? Aye, there's the link, eh? |
| Beth | Fri Mar 28 2003 15:04:38 |
| I really don't have anything to add to this page except to say that like many of you, I thought I was the only one trying to find information on Katherine. I first read the book in 1975 after stumbling on it at a friend's house. Since then I've bought many books on English history and Chaucer just to try to find her mentioned. I've learned a lot from this website and have enjoyed all the links. Please keep adding... |
| Dianne | Wed Apr 2 2003 01:41:18 |
| A few years ago after reading THE book I was thinking about The Savoy after it had been attacked by the mob and wondered if there was any 'treasure' still in the River Thames. I telephoned the Savoy Hotel and they put me through to their Archives room and a lovely lady there (who I should imagine was sick to death of people ringing her who had read THE book) said it had all probably been recovered by now, but she did send me some photo copied pages from a book all about the Savoy's history. It was very interesting and if I can find it (I've moved house a couple of times since)I'll let you know. |
| Kate | Wed Apr 2 2003 18:39:45 |
| Diane - I'd love to see that info on the Savoy history if you find it! |
| mary-alice | Thu Apr 3 2003 20:17:13 |
| just saying hello as another Katherine fan. first read the book while home on maternity leave 13 years ago. ever since, I've been obsessively collecting books on John of Gaunt, Chaucer, Plantagenets etc etc. it all started so harmlessly! nice to know Anya's story has generated such interest in Katherine's life. my grandmum was from Liverpool and in my fantasy realm, I'm a distant descendant of a Beaufort. now, I'm off to a few websites that I've found here. thanks! |
| Anne | Fri Apr 4 2003 03:18:41 |
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Welcome Mary-Alice:
If you have some titles to share on John of Guant, I would love to get them from you....I can't get enough and there seems to be so little available! I am a descendant in my dreams as well. As an adopted child, with hardly any information on my birth parents, I can safely believe I AM related!!! Cheers! |
| Linda | Fri Apr 4 2003 05:47:51 |
| Hello all...thought about you all as I watched the movie, "Mary, Queen of Scots" this weekend. It was so well done...Glenda Jackson portraying Queen Elizabeth and Vanessa Redgrave starring in the role of Mary, Queen of Scots. As I watched the film I kept on thinking that this was the calibre of movie that you would appreciate...If Katherine and John's story was ever to be told, I would hope that it would be as well done as this movie....the acting, the scenery, and the music....divine! Hope that you all have seen this movie....or plan to see it in the future. |