Disgusting Tunr Up For Justice

[Skevmeister]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16980025


What happens to Democracy when teh members of teh council vot eon it but a court can over turn it. I am not by anyway a christian. But this has really got my back-up. Damn Human Righst, helps everyone but those humans who really need teh rights.

[Marcus Woodhouse]

It does seem odd to me. Why get upset about someone praying to a God you don't beleive in.
I don't get upset by people praying to their God(s)/Goddess or for that matter by people who believe in none at all.
There is something strangely "missionary" in the zeal of some atheists to force their non-belief onto others.
You might think I am a sad old fool for believing in such nonsense but I'm quite happy with my myths and fairy tales if you don't mind.

[John Waller]

I agree with the ruling. I can't see any reason why religion should have a place in local government meetings. I was watching a webcast of my local council only this week and was suprised to see a member of the clergy leading prayers before the meeting started. Seems to fly in the face of all the council's policys of inclusion, equality etc etc. If members are that way inclined then hold a private prayer meeting before entering the chamber.

[Skevmeister]

I have to say John; I have to vigorously disagree. With a policy of inclusion, it would not be wrong a Muslim Cleric to lead a prayer as well if requested. But considering that esepcially in Bideford they put it to a vote, and he lost teh vote. Thsi flys completely in teh face of democarcy. The councillors where asked; the majority spoke and said they where happy with it and it had been tradition in teh chamber for many years.

Bloody atheists are a pain in the ****. Fine don't belive but shut the hell up telling the people who do belive in something that they are wrong or just stupid.

[Lord High Everything Esle]

House of Lords next then.

[Foxe]

The reason that the courts are allowed to overturn the decisions of the local councils is to ensure that local councils (or indeed national government for that matter) can't make illegal decisions. I for one am damn glad of that system!

The issue here is a ridiculous waste of time and public money though. If some councillors want to say prayers before a meeting that's fine, provided it's not compulsory. Equality means that everyone is allowed to practice their faith without hinderance or discrimination, not that faith must be removed from the public sphere.

[medievalpirate]

House of Lords next then.

why, 'cause they don't exist....?

[TancredVonUberwald]

If these councilors work on a voluntary basis then I can't see a problem with having a prayer, particularly if they've voted to that effect. If a particular member doesn't like it they really aught to leave those that do to it.
If however, as I suspect will be the case, they are being payed by the tax payer they really aught to stop wasting time and do their contracted jobs. Unless of course those who they serve are baying for divine intervention during meetings, in which case, once again; knock yourselves out.

[Medicus Matt]

Bloody atheists are a pain in the ****. .

No, zealots of any form are a pain in the ****, regardless of their faith or lack of it.

[Skevmeister]

Bloody atheists are a pain in the *rse. .

No, zealots of any form are a pain in the *rse, regardless of their faith or lack of it.

Oooh OK you and the voice of reason

[Captain Reech]

Interesting that the man felt he had to resign because he didn't get his own way. I'm assuming the reason that the council had voted on the subject (and from the article I'm assuming more than once) because he kept complaining, even though he'd been outvoted. Like a lot of the other actions brought by the NSS this does seem to be a case of "Religion Bashing" rather than campaigning to prevent discrimination against those who chose Atheism.

The practice in Bideford (as reported in the New Satesman) "is for the mayor to invite a local cleric to say a prayer at the start of meetings. Occasionally, a local representative of the Quakers leads a "moment of reflection" instead. Sometimes the mayor calls for a minute's silence instead of prayers." So this is at least a multi denominational if not a multi faith practice (it doesn't specify that the Mayor always selects a Christian cleric but one must assume that this has been the case) and, more importantly, the Councillors are free to leave the room during the practice if they so wish.

This case was brought after a ruling from the Standards Council for England in 2008 which had ruled that it did "not think that for a council to have prayers is a breach of any of the relevant equality legislation"

If Mr Bone had been excluded from meetings or stigmatised because of his choice not to believe then I could have understood the statement "This judgment is an important victory for everyone who wants a secular society, one that neither advantages nor disadvantages people because of their religion or lack of it." but the case appears to hinge upon the suggestion that he COULD have been disadvantaged if he chose to exclude himself.

As it stands, I have to agree with Foxe in saying that this was a ridiculous waste of time and resources, which will now lead to an appeal and a further consumption of court time and public resources (I don't disagree with the right of those who have lost this case to appeal I have to add.)

[Sophia]

The ruling is absolutely correct. If the Xtian members of a legislative body wish to pray for guidance before a attending a meeting all well and good. The actual meeting itself which is being paid for by the taxpayer should only be concerned with the actual functions of that body.

Also as a person of another faith I can tell you that it is extremely uncomfortable to be forced to be part of an act of faith which you do not wish to be part of. By including the act of prayer in the formal business of the council they are making attendance compulsory.

Finally I really don't see many of the people who are saying this is OK being so comfortable if a majority devout Muslim or Orthodox Jewish council voted to hold gender segregated prayers, with specific dress standards, in Arabic or Hebrew which a non-member would would not be able to understand.

The simplest solution is disestablishment and absolute segregation of church and state.

[Bad Viking]

I have to say John; I have to vigorously disagree. With a policy of inclusion, it would not be wrong a Muslim Cleric to lead a prayer as well if requested. But considering that esepcially in Bideford they put it to a vote, and he lost teh vote. Thsi flys completely in teh face of democarcy. The councillors where asked; the majority spoke and said they where happy with it and it had been tradition in teh chamber for many years.

Bloody atheists are a pain in the ****. Fine don't belive but shut the hell up telling the people who do belive in something that they are wrong or just stupid.

Amen to that !!!
I would be interested to see how the plant would have faired out if all mankind was atheist - I wonder what art and architecture would look like and how a meaning of existence could be arrived at and how rules could be formed- don't get me wrong - religion has a hell of lot to answer for - but don't blame the religion its self - blame the barstewards who twisted and corrupted the original message !

I think an athiest planet would be a very dull and boring -
As for tradition ---- When in Rome ........ !!

Now lets make that narsty man who is jumping up and down about it in the report a nice cup of tea.

[The Iron Dwarf]

im not a christian, muslim jew etc but im not a radicle atheist either, believe what you want, worship who or what you want but dont preach to me or try to force me to believe ( Coz I believe you are all a figment of a deranged imagination and will probably all vanish when the doctors come round with my medication ).

[Foxe]

Also as a person of another faith I can tell you that it is extremely uncomfortable to be forced to be part of an act of faith which you do not wish to be part of. By including the act of prayer in the formal business of the council they are making attendance compulsory.

believe what you want, worship who or what you want but dont preach to me or try to force me to believe

I guess you both missed Captain Reech's post then, in which it was pointed out that the pre-meeting "prayers" a: were not always prayers, and b: were not compulsory?

The ruling means that one man is free to practice his atheism at work but others are not free to practice their Christianity, whereas before the ruling boths groups were free to practice their beliefs. I maintain that a legal check on any governing body is right and proper, but in this case the law is an ass, and the letter of the law is being used to undermine the spirit of the law in a case which should never have been brought anyway.

[abaddon1974]

THe radio said that the ruling was that the prayers could not be part of the council meeting.
Simple solution, have the prayers 5 minutes before the official meeting starts, which was the opinion of a legal expert the BBC drafted in. You are then obeying the ruling and also upholding the tradition.
Everybody should be happy.

Craig

[The Iron Dwarf]

I guess you both missed Captain Reech's post then, in which it was pointed out that the pre-meeting "prayers" a: were not always prayers, and b: were not compulsory?

I did not miss it but would choose not to attend that part of any meeting, my comment was concerning zealots and radicals of all faiths or lack thereof, preach at me and I will get annoyed even if I believe in the same.

religion can be thought of like a penis:
it is ok to have one
it is ok to be proud of it
but get it out and wave it round in public and people may not be happy about that

[Marcus Woodhouse]

Sophie, I have been made an honourary women in order to take part in prayers at a mosque in Turkey (who'd have thought it was so hard to find a church there, eh!) so I have no problem with taking part in segregated prayers following another Faith, and I often take part in services from other Christian denominations.
I did have problems when a group I belonged to a long time ago got it into their collective heads that to be a Iron Age re-enactor you had to be a worshipper of the old gods but before it becam silly I had no problem with others lighting bonfires and praying to their gods, I just made myself absent while they did it-normally by washing up, having a wash myself or by disappearing and saying my own prayers (largely in order to not offend them as it happens which was odd as they didn't mind upsetting me).
I cannot see why this gentleman could not have just made his excuses and made himself absent for the duration of the "prayer meeting" in an identical way. More and more often, people who have a faith (including your own) are being painted as weirdos and deranged by what I see as an increasingly aggressive athesitic movement within secular society.
Christianity tends to get the kicking first because Christians in this country do a lot of handwringing and turning of the other cheek but don't think it would stop there. The Christian church is just an easier target because if you start taking the p*ss out of Jews, Muslims and Hindus you quite rightly will be slapped down for being racist. For the same reason no-one mentions the all-male, celebate, segregated, isolationist priesthood of Buddhism when they talk about the Catholic Church being out of touch.
It is a shame that the council in question did not approach members of other faith communities in order to be more inclusive (but maybe they did), I use prayers from other faiths when leading collective worship in the C.E. school I work at dispite being a (Catholic) Christian and it being a Anglican V.A. school and when I did have a child tell me he thought all this stuff about God was rubbish I told him that it was great that he had come to that opinion (it also meant I could tick the boxes regarding his spiritual development as he had clearly considered all the information at his disposal and come to a self enlightened decision.)

[Dave B]

The ruling means that one man is free to practice his atheism at work but others are not free to practice their Christianity.

WIth respect Foxe, I think that is incorrect.

As I understand itthe situation before the first ruling was that prayers were item 1 on the agenda, meaning that those who did not attend prayers were officialy not present for the whole meeting. the situation after the meeting is that the council will be able to have prayers immidiately before the meeting, so that those who turn up at the end of prayers are on time, so to speak.

I think the situation has be dramatised a bit by the press.

[Foxe]

You may be right, it was late...

Either way, the whole thing is still a colossal waste of time and money - I'm definitely right about that... I think.

[The Iron Dwarf]

Dave B if that is how it is then im OK with that, if it was me I would be 'on time' but not early

Foxe Agree with your last post about waste

[Senilis Pravus]

What about Pastafarians?

Firstly - it's a waste of money taking this to court.
Secondly, whilst I agree with the earlier point that Christianity is an easy target in this country, the Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist and other faiths are not a matter of race, so it wouldn't be racism. However, I totally agree that had it been a predominantly Jewish or Muslim council, saying prayers to what is essentiaaly the same deity and this had happened there would be hell to pay.

Thirdly, this is a long standing tradition in many councils. How much longer are we going to allow the forces of Politcal Correctness erode the long-standing and valuable traditions of our country? England is a Christian nation. Britain is a union of Christian nations. I am not a Christian (I'm best described as Agnostic Buddhist ) but the PC crowd have had it their own way for far too long (Thanks for that, Blair, Brown & Co.). It's about time that we told them to STFU!! (and give them a damned good thrashing if they don't!)

[Dave B]

Firstly - it's a waste of money taking this to court.

I don't agree. Personally I wouldn't care either way onthe prayers thing. I'm agnostic and god - I can take him or leave him. But if you believe something is wrong and unfair then you should stand up and fight it. Its a waste of time the amount of attention this little storm in a teacup has had though.

Thirdly, this is a long standing tradition in many councils. How much longer are we going to allow the forces of Politcal Correctness erode the long-standing and valuable traditions of our country?

Don't really agree with that either. There are plenty of longstanding traditions (like not giving women the vote, or locking the mentally deficient up to rot) which we are glad to see the back of. Just because something is traditional doesn't make it right.

Its a rubbish tradition. Like someone said back up the thread a way, how about they stop worrying about chatting to god on work time and concentrate on getting the bins emptied and the roads fixed.

[Brian la Zouche]

was this the jedi council ?

[John Waller]

was this the jedi council ?

Well the farce was with them!

[Victim]

The original point concerned a Judgement overruling a local agreement on a point of regulation because the Council breached human rights as they were not empowered to hold prayers - a legally correct and completely daft decision. If no one was required to join in or ostracized for abstaining then I don't see a 'human rights' issue.

However, the quote that caught my attention: 'many of whom (the majority) find prayers very, very helpful' - Helpful ? In what way ? If elected officials are making decisions, on my behalf, regarding how my local Authority is run based on 'help' from a mythical deity then I am very concerned. Their actions are not based upon rationalism. This is why there is no place for Religious invocation in Secular matters.

[Type16]

Firstly - it's a waste of money taking this to court.

I don't agree. Personally I wouldn't care either way onthe prayers thing. I'm agnostic and god - I can take him or leave him. But if you believe something is wrong and unfair then you should stand up and fight it. Its a waste of time the amount of attention this little storm in a teacup has had though.

Thirdly, this is a long standing tradition in many councils. How much longer are we going to allow the forces of Politcal Correctness erode the long-standing and valuable traditions of our country?

Don't really agree with that either. There are plenty of longstanding traditions (like not giving women the vote, or locking the mentally deficient up to rot) which we are glad to see the back of. Just because something is traditional doesn't make it right.

Its a rubbish tradition. Like someone said back up the thread a way, how about they stop worrying about chatting to god on work time and concentrate on getting the bins emptied and the roads fixed.

Totally agree Dave. Round here its not just this 'tradition', its the usual apron & handshake gang + farmers pushing things through for their mates benefits. Baaaaaa. On one hand purifying their 'office' with prayer -- on the other claiming T&S when car sharing.

[Senilis Pravus]

Of course, you're all so right. How could I have been so mistaken. Tradition is a bad thing.

[Dave B]

Not what I was saying at all. There are fine traditions, and there are lame traditions. I personally feel that making it part of someone's job to come to prayers when they don't want to is a lame tradition, but its just my opinion.

[The_Kyle]

Its good to know that the economy has recovered, all the terrorists have been hunted down and liquidated, the thieves, rapists and murderers have recieved thier just punishment and freedom and liberty rings throughout the land, so now local councils can focus on this kind of thing...