'Belgic' Shako

[John Waller]

So I'm making a few belgics. Blocked out a couple of bodies so far. Which went quite well. Was wondering if you can get sheet felt of the same quaility as the wool felt hoods? Only option at the moment is to cut up a second hood to make the false front. Which I have done but it's a bit of a pain. Any suppliers?

Secondly. Attatching the false front. Stitched or glued (or both/either)? Any clues?

Thirdly. Any recommendations as to where I might be able to closely examine originals? Aside from the NAM.

Cheers

[John Waller]

Off to Sandhurst next week to view an original. Which hopefully will answer my questions.

[Dixie]

Best of luck.
While you are there could you have a look at something for me?

[John Waller]

Best of luck.
While you are there could you have a look at something for me?

I can try. What in particular?

[Dixie]

The duexieme porte aigle pennent (the Red one) of the 62eme regiment d'ligne is in the museum as well. Not sure, 1 how the peenent is attached to the pole and 2 what the base of the pole looks like. Any chance that you can take a look and let me know or perhaps sneak a picture or two?
Cheers
A.

[John Waller]

Will try. I'm told no pics though.

Cheer

John

[John Waller]

The duexieme porte aigle pennent (the Red one) of the 62eme regiment d'ligne is in the museum as well. Not sure, 1 how the peenent is attached to the pole and 2 what the base of the pole looks like. Any chance that you can take a look and let me know or perhaps sneak a picture or two?
Cheers
A.

Sorry Dixie but we only had access to three shakos that were taken from store for us examine in an office at the NAM outpost at Sandhurst. I guess the pennent is in Sandhurst's own museum?

It was a most worthwhile visit and it cleared up a few of the questions we had about the finer details of shako construction - but posed even more! The more you learn the less you know

[Dixie]

glad it was a worth while visit

[Grymm]

Have you seen the shakos in Dereham house, one has been tarred.

[John Waller]

Have you seen the shakos in Dereham house, one has been tarred.

No I haven't. Where is Dereham House? Norfolk? I can't find it on a quick google. Do you know of a website?

[Grymm]

Apolloogies mi smell chequer is phuqed or me brane wuz onnafritz.....
That should read Dyrham House which is an NT property off the A46 nr Junc 18 of the M4. SN14 8ER for google maps or a satnav.

[John Waller]

Apolloogies mi smell chequer is phuqed or me brane wuz onnafritz.....
That should read Dyrham House which is an NT property off the A46 nr Junc 18 of the M4. SN14 8ER for google maps or a satnav.

OK gotcha. I think I have been there many moons ago when I lived in Brizzle. Time for a revisit perchance.

[John Waller]

Finally finished my first effort. Quite pleased. Lots learned and next one will be better. Thanks to everyone who helped with tips and suggestions.








Any constructive criticism gratefully received.

Cheers

John

[Neibelungen]

John,

It looks very good.

Seems to have all the right elements and proportions correct.

Out of interest who's doing the shako plates for you, they look spot on with the 2 in them.

[wurzul]

Just seen this. I think any Dyrham house caps have been transferred to Snowshill. The only shakos there now are mid C19th ones. On the subject of belgic caps, I was talking to Craig Armstrong (?) of the 33rd at Kelmarsh, and he impressed me enough to order one of his belgics, he has some trick for applying the tape that avoids the puckering on the front.

[Neibelungen]

he has some trick for applying the tape that avoids the puckering on the front.

It's called a steam iron . You fold it in half and pull it into a 1/4 bend while it's still warm. The outside curve will give a little and the inside will tighten.

[John Waller]

John,

It looks very good.

Seems to have all the right elements and proportions correct.

Out of interest who's doing the shako plates for you, they look spot on with the 2 in them.

Thanks Andrew. Much appreciated. Next one will use a heavier weight hood. The plate is a fabrication I'm afraid. It's a general pattern plate from Jeremy Tenniswood with an attached American Civil War brass company number from West Point Sutlers. We don't know for sure what the plate looked like for the 2nd. My reconstruction is based on a line drawing from an old regimental association newsletter. We don't know if it was of an extant artefact or simply made up. I think the artist is now deceased.

[John Waller]

Just seen this. I think any Dyrham house caps have been transferred to Snowshill. The only shakos there now are mid C19th ones. On the subject of belgic caps, I was talking to Craig Armstrong (?) of the 33rd at Kelmarsh, and he impressed me enough to order one of his belgics, he has some trick for applying the tape that avoids the puckering on the front.

I have one of Craig's stovepipes and am very happy with it. I'm sure he will make you a fine cap. It was he who inspired me to have a go myself and he has been very helpful along with Clive from the Coldstream's, who went on the same course as Craig. Together perhaps we will start to rid the scene of the buckram and hobby-felt caps.

[Neibelungen]

John,

Plate looks very good. Probably correct, there were either roman or arabic and varied so much, even between regiments. There's both version for the 41st surviving in originals.

I wondered, as it didn't seem to be an added mumber from the picture, and looked to be a good match.

It's always good to see groups striving to improve quality and getting the small details right, even if it takes time. Too often 'good enough for now' seems to be where they settle for and don't work any futher forward.

[John Waller]

John,

Plate looks very good. Probably correct, there were either roman or arabic and varied so much, even between regiments. There's both version for the 41st surviving in originals.

I wondered, as it didn't seem to be an added mumber from the picture, and looked to be a good match.

It's always good to see groups striving to improve quality and getting the small details right, even if it takes time. Too often 'good enough for now' seems to be where they settle for and don't work any futher forward.

Amazing what you can do with a bit of araldite! Some of the plates we saw at Sandhurst had applied numbers or badges but usually in a different metal to the plate. Might try soldering the next one. Arabic number is probably right as it's what we have on surviving breastplates and buttons but we may never know for sure.

[Neibelungen]

Some of the plates we saw at Sandhurst had applied numbers or badges but usually in a different metal to the plate

Usually the metal matches the lace colour on uniform, so you see some silver on gilt and some all gilt.

You do get the few exceptions and some odd cases, such as the 41st changing lace colour in 1813 after the belgic plate comes in, so theres a potential for either. Not sure when the exact date they were issued with caps, but seems to be a lot of belgic finds in Canada/US for them.

There's a couple of odd ones for the 27th, but some of those plates might be suspect and the had their own distiction badges as well.
I've never seen a genuine pinned GR though, but again it's possible though very unlikely.

[mel secker]

Together perhaps we will start to rid the scene of the buckram and hobby-felt caps.

Hello John,

yes you have done a fine job on your Belgic, however im not to sure about your comments on the above - we make felt shakos and buckram, we also have delighted customers of the said buckram caps from all over the world ! Mel. @ toadshakos.

[John Waller]

Together perhaps we will start to rid the scene of the buckram and hobby-felt caps.

Hello John,

yes you have done a fine job on your Belgic, however im not to sure about your comments on the above - we make felt shakos and buckram, we also have delighted customers of the said buckram caps from all over the world ! Mel. @ toadshakos.

Hi Mel,
Not dissing your work but is there any provenace for the type of construction of your replicas? The only reference I can think of was some advice to a young officer to mock up a cheap bicorn using pasteboard and wool for day to day use to save wear and tear on his quality hat. There is also a belgic currently for sale in Portsmouth (yours for £,000s), which purports to be an original, which seems to show evidence if being of cut felt construction in that there may be a seam on the crown but I suspect is just a split in the fabricc. But surely most, if not all, caps were blocked?

Cheers

John

[mel secker]

Hello John, no i dont believe you were dissing my work directly, you were however having a pop at buckram based shakos, surely there is a place for these, at least in our experiance there is.
with regards our replicas, i dont ever recall claiming there was a provenance, if you check our home page on the site it tells you what is on offer and of the construction .
yes im sure you are quite correct - all or most shakos were one piece, again i dont recall ever saying different.

out of interest i can recall it is not that long since your group approached us about making their shakos ( from buckram ), they thought our price a little high , and we dont price match.

in defense of the buckram hat, i think you will find it a lot harder wearing, if made properly , therefore saving money for re-enactors.

with regards the so called original shakos for sale , yes i have seen them with seams around the crown ( wrong in my opinion ) .

regards, Mel.

www.toadshakos.co.uk

[John Waller]

Hello John, no i dont believe you were dissing my work directly, you were however having a pop at buckram based shakos, surely there is a place for these, at least in our experiance there is.
with regards our replicas, i dont ever recall claiming there was a provenance, if you check our home page on the site it tells you what is on offer and of the construction .
yes im sure you are quite correct - all or most shakos were one piece, again i dont recall ever saying different.

out of interest i can recall it is not that long since your group approached us about making their shakos ( from buckram ), they thought our price a little high , and we dont price match.

in defense of the buckram hat, i think you will find it a lot harder wearing, if made properly , therefore saving money for re-enactors.

with regards the so called original shakos for sale , yes i have seen them with seams around the crown ( wrong in my opinion ) .

regards, Mel.

http://www.toadshakos.co.uk

Mel, Honestly I was not thinking of your work when I made my comments but some rather poor diy examples I had seen recently. I agree that buckram based shakos can be very hard wearing, retain their shape better, and can look very good providing the top joint is not too obvious. I wore one made by our late CO George Brown for ten years and it served well (though it did suffer a bit when a french grenadier sat on it!). I think some of our members did talk to you as after George died we needed a new supplier. But any group that wants to progress should IMO have a policy of continual improvement and to base their impression on the 'real' thing. I'm sure there will be buckram caps in the regt for some years to come. However we are planning to kit up for a post 1812 impression and realistically can only afford the caps if we make them in-house, hence my experimentation and research, and we may as well try and get it as right as we can.

Cheer

John

[mel secker]

Hello John,

No problem, and believe me i do understand about trying to save money, that is why we made our first shako.
If you see us at an event, come and say hello, and John try and stear clear of those French Greenadiers - sounds a bit expensive mate !

All the best, Mel @ www.toadshakos.co.uk

[Havercake Lad]

Best way to save money is to try get things right first time if possible....so a re-enactor is not faced with respending to improve an item ( plus it stops less accurate pieces being passed down or sold on and staying in re-enactment .)
Often some groups are unaware of accuracy of what they start with ( and feel cornered into declaring all their kit as ' totally authentic' ).
Good on you John for your work, researech and forum postings.

[John Waller]

Best way to save money is to try get things right first time if possible....so a re-enactor is not faced with respending to improve an item ( plus it stops less accurate pieces being passed down or sold on and staying in re-enactment .)
Often some groups are unaware of accuracy of what they start with ( and feel cornered into declaring all their kit as ' totally authentic' ).
Good on you John for your work, researech and forum postings.

Havercake Lad, ain't that the truth. I'm sure most of us have bought or made some rubbish along the way due to ignorance or false economics. I know I have .Mistakes take a very long time to rectify or work out of the system without draconian measures. I would like to think that in my group we are at least aware of what is wrong and are slowly addressing these issues. I have the greatest respect for those who set the group up back in 1992 but some kit errors date back to that time probably due to the factors mentioned above and still persist. Still a program of improvements gives the group a focus and something to aim for as does the excellent example set by groups like yours.

[wurzul]

Andrew or anyone else,
Have you experience of making pre-1806 lacquered regimental caps? I need one in a hurry for a shoot.

[Neibelungen]

I have made a couple of laquered ones over the years.

Part of the trouble is the time it takes to get the correct laquer to dry. Ok in very warm, windy weather your only waiting a week between coats. In damp winters it can be a month or more. Terebith in the linseed speeds it up a bit.

As a very quick substitute a thick semi-black enamel paint on a felt shako will give the same effect. You can use roofing mastic as well, but that takes almost as long as a lindeed coat. Marine hats are probably 'tarred' with some sort of bitumous mastic as it's the caulking for ships rather than a flamable lindeed oil.

You could buid the body of a felt shako up with thickened black emulsion or acylic and a final coat of glossy-ish (spirit) paint will give much the same effect, you just don't want it too smooth or shiny or it looks more like patent. The leather ones have the stitching sunk deeply into the leather as otherwise it rubs and the few surviving ones are nearly impossible to see it on (probably years of coats too)


No chance me making one quick as I can't keep up with what I already have to do and not annoy any more people.