a sleeve question - 15thC

[lidimy]

Littering the costume section again

I have under some unexpected circumstances found an opportunity to re-make my 15thC Northern Italian gown in its entirity. This means I can iron out some minor niggles with the pattern and assembly of the gown

One of the main issues was the fit of the sleeves. As per fashion and the specific inspiration image, I tried to make them as tight as possible all the way down. The shape of the sleevehead itself was fine, but I had issues bending my elbow (to the extent that I couldn't lace myself in without bursting blood vessels )

I don't want to compromise my fashionability for obvious reasons but want to know if it is possible to create a sleeve with two seams front and back for better ease around the elbow and better ensuing fit!

Thanks!

[Alice the Huswyf]

On a very tight long sleeve, what you do is make them very long - the extra length allows for the bend a the elbow. You will see this in early medieval and regency sleeves for the same reason.

[lidimy]

OK - will have to experiment! and this definitely doesn't cut off the blod supply when I try to bend my arm? and 2 seam sleeves are out of the question? I mean, I've never seen them in pics but seams can be a bit enigmatic anyway...

[Alice the Huswyf]

Well you do have to allow 2" on top of body measurements for wearing ease, you blonde, otherwise anything will cut off the blood supply when you move!

[mally ley]

2 seams, one along the front one along the back of the sleeve, are, I believe a later thing - late C16th onwards (no, can't cite refs, sorry!)

[lidimy]

No probs Malley - suspected as much but needed a brunette to confirm it!

[mally ley]

No probs. Sorry can't give chapter and verse, but I know it is talked about in Tudorbethan terms as a 'later thing'. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't about much earlier ... you can really tie yourself in knots with this sort of thing

Would another possibility be buttons? I don't really know the full details of the style of yours very well, but a long row of buttons - up to a couple of inches below the elbow - if left undone when dressing, or doing anything else that required elbow bending(!), would ease the tension.

[lidimy]

That wouldn't really work as I think buttons are more of a 14thC thing for high status clothing? at least you don't see them in paintings.

Incidently I only reconsidered the sleeve issue after making myself some sleeves from a 1610 pattern - the difference the slight curve in the elbow makes to the overall fit and comfort is incredible! I do hope they 'discovered' the fitted sleeve earlier!

[EnglishArcher]

The other option is to put a 'pre-bend' into the elbow. That is, make the sleeve in two parts, an upper and lower part, with the lower set at an angle to the upper.

It's described in far better detail here: http://www.cottesimple.com/blois_and_sl ... _hinge.htm

This is a more medieval way of achieving what would done in the later 16thC with the 'inner' and 'outer' sleeve pattern.

I've used this several times on doublets and it works remarkably well.

[Alice the Huswyf]

But have you seen it on women's clothing?

[EnglishArcher]

But have you seen it on women's clothing?

to be fair, no; but then I'm hardly the last word on women's sleeve design.

Another variation is to shape the sleeve on the body but leave space at the elbow for it to bend into. I find this works better than just adding length, because of the size differential between upper arms, lower arms and elbows (which get surprisingly large in circumference when you bend them!).

The Moselund finds show evidence of this style of sleeve being used. Many of the garments exhibiting this style of sleeve are mens', but I find it difficult to believe they couldn't apply the technique to women, too.

Of course, you could also argue that having a sleeve so tight you couldn't bend you're elbows was a sign of status - "look, I'm so rich I don't even have to bend my arms." (Not sure I'm convinced by that, though!)

[lidimy]

I'd look like a barbie doll, trying to drink with my arm above my head somewhere!!

I like the idea od the Blois doublet but like Alice says... that would just be too convenient to find a female equivalent!

By adding space, do you mean adding a bobble into the pattern at the elbow? I guess it wouldn't be very noticeable as having one's arms completely straight is unusual, especially if undergoing strenuous activity such as resting one's hands in one's lap.

I guess a mixture of the two is best - allowing extra length (with mitten cuffs that shouldn't be a problem anyway...) and being generous with the pattern around the elbow.

[EnglishArcher]

I guess a mixture of the two is best - allowing extra length (with mitten cuffs that shouldn't be a problem anyway...) and being generous with the pattern around the elbow.

That would be my choice.

[Alice the Huswyf]

Which sounds suspiciously like adding in the wearing ease you forgot in the first place ......

[lidimy]

I didn't realise I had such bobbly elbows!