Provenance: Capped Sleeved Kirtles 15C

[Big Gay Al]

Hi all.

Can anyone provenance capped sleeves on Kirtles in England, 1470 - 1475, please?

[Big Gay Al]

Or even in 1470 - 1500, to be fair!

[Colin Middleton]

What do you mean by 'capped sleeves'?

[lidimy]

Do the Devonshire hunting tapestries count as English?

[Alice the Huswyf]

1470- 75? No, don't do it. Or sleeveless. Or full length lace-on sleeves. Re tapestry as a primary source: are they allegorical scenes, or is it a work made on the continent?

[EnglishArcher]

Do the Devonshire hunting tapestries count as English?

Well, they're probably Flemish in production, but we have no idea where the original cartoon came from.

I can't find anything I'd call a 'capped' sleeve (whatever that really means!); and besides, the Devonshire tapestries are dated to somewhere between 1420 - 1450, so a bit too early.

[lidimy]

Twas a bit of a shot in the dark

while researching a lower status gown and looking for evidence of layering in womens' clothing there were certainly more depictions of longer sleeved kirtles/gowns than short - the sources being Northern European in origin. As you'd expect the shorter sleeves were on manual labourers though even then, often in more extreme conditions/weather than simple outdoor work. I expect the argument for short sleeved kirtles would eventually converge with the sleeveless doublet question though that's a bit of a Cuba...

As a hypothesis, the reason why short sleeved or sleeveless kirtles are so rarely seen is because they are always being worn under a similarly fitted but long sleeved working gown...

[Alice the Huswyf]

No sleeveless kirtles in this period, Lidi. There is actually a good body of period imagery for short sleeved kirtles, with and without pin-on sleeves. Sleeves are usually depicted as 'off' in working or very intimate, home situations.

Unless possibly as an undergown for high status women, you are flemish and much later that this date as they also have a waist seam and side lacing.

[lidimy]

Point taken.... buuut... is it so easy to wipe them from the board?

to go back to the hunting tapestries - one woman wearing the 'capped sleeve' kirtle is wearing something else underneath but with no sleeves showing. Could that be a sleeveless kirtle? or similar in this pic... (nicked from another topic )

You might also argue that the sleeve is so neatly fitted to the upper arm (or at least depicted as such) that it may be uncomfortable/unfashionable to create extra bulk with short sleeves underneath.

Though equally to counter my own argument, the image from 1473 appears to show a long sleeved frontlacing kirtle being laid to one side exposing a pink short sleeved underneath - which in turn would suggest that the enigmatic short sleeves aren't nonexistent but rather often hidden under another garment.

I remain to be convinced either way, though as you say the status of the wardrobe owner will obviously impact upon one's sleeves lol!

[Alice the Huswyf]

The young girl in the french dancing illumination of dancers is wearing a sideless surcoat over a kirtle - they did linger on for a long time.

The hunting tapestry is, I think french - a friend has a copy - bear in mind that the french carry on their 'medieval' period well into what we would call the early tudor period, so you have to be really careful. The figure in question is also wearing the red kirtle wide placed over a dark underlayer, yet the skirt of a blue undergarment is showing. This argues that she is wearing the tudor transitional contrast stomacher and gapped lacing populuar in court circles in 1490 - 95: she is obviously lower status so you are looking at a later date than that, even.

Because people recycled garments, you are likely to wear one complete short sleeve kirtle under another rather than partially cut down a garment so that it could not be passed on as a top layer. Clothing - even at the humblest levels - was a large investment and retained realisable value in a second hand market, as a hand me down, gift to a lower status woman, donation to the poor via the church or posthumous bequest. You don't damage something of value lightly.

Your bather is shown in her underlayers. The garment she has cast aside , if you look cloeley is actually a front laced long sleeved kirtle, not a gown. So you are looking at direct evidence of underlayers - which are short sleeved.

From direct experience, there is very little bulk in wearing two layers of sleeves of one or both are short lseeed, It si no worse that a tee shirt under a fitted jumper if your garments fit you.

[mally ley]

All of these pictures are for short sleeves, proper sleeves, fitted like full length sleeves, but shorter.

This is not what I picture if I think of a capped sleeve - which is not much bigger than the wings you get on shoulders of late C16-C17th doublets. I'm not aware of any capped sleeves, by this definition.

[lidimy]

The file name dates it to 1475 and a Flemish source, unfortunately I can't remember where I saved it from so can't double check dates

btw I called the long sleeved frontlacing kirtle a gown because I didn't know what to call it your point is exactly the one that I made! (to discuss the original Q on short sleeves rather than the Cuba on sleeveless). I guess it would make sense for a stomacher to be pinned over the pink shortleeved kirtle to get the effect of the lady in the tapestry and various other paintings with contrasting skirts and overlaced stomachers?

[Alice the Huswyf]

A capped sleeve extends only over the top of the shoulder, sometimes into the arm pit, but barely and as a slim wedge only. It is like a pieced extension of the shoulder rather than a sleeve tube. It may be elevated or padded as in the past tudorbethan styles, or as today shaped and unsupported. It is not medieval. It is also not suitable for office wear and is not the friend of the bingo-winged!

I think we are having two discussions at the same time as the terminology is misapplied. A cap sleeve in relation to period clothing would essentailly be a shoulder decoration , not any kind of sleeve, hence the references to sleeveless clothing for the period specified.

[Big Gay Al]

Hi all!


Well, major thanks to all contributors.
Firstly, Apologies. I have been using an incorrect term - I have understood 'Capped' to mean a short sleeve, ending at the bicep, for other sleeves to be pinned on if desired. this is not correct.
I have been sweating about , digging through all sorts of books and sites to try and get this resolved as much as is possible.
As far as I can see, there are contemporary images a-plenty for 'short' sleeves across the water, on the continent, but precious few( if any!) for ENGLISH ladies wearing them.

I think the short sleeves for English Ladies 1450-1485 may be an a bit of a re-enactorism! (Personal opinion, based on lack of evidence: happy to be shown otherwise by anyone!)
Of course, there is plenty of arguments as to how Flemish, French, German, Italian or even Spanish fashions could have got to England - I was just hoping to have a firm base to build from.

I think this may bring about a change in our kit guide!

Lastly - if anyone - ANYONE - can show me contemporary images portraying English ladies in Bicep length sleeves, PLEASE DO! I want to find this evidence. Until I get evidence, I'm going with the full length - rolled up, if you want but not cut.

Thanks again and please continue discussions if you can!

[Alice the Huswyf]

You will be hard pressed to find english sources due to the Iconoclasm of the Reformation and WW2 damage.

However, a working woman cannot work easily in rolled up, fitted sleeves - it is a very practical approach to work and dressing and is so contiguous in continental use that .... I really can't be bothered to write yet again who was influencing who but blah blah blah.

Your group, your choice and while I respect your conservatism but you are about to take a step backwards. While I do not encourage broad assumptions, You are not going to be served the answer on a neat plate: this is, as I came to realise some years ago, is where you have to broaden research hugely to answer an apparently simple question. I could write the essay but I leave you the joy of ferretting out the gems for yourself.

[Frances Perry]

Hi guys, I'm with Alice on this one - practicality must win out, especially with working class women - rolling up sleeves is not practical with the fitted sleeves of a kirtle. Perhaps you may find some of these images interesting - whilst not English in origin, it does show that short-sleeved kirtles did exist in one form or another, and to presume Engliah stood on its own away from the rest of Eurpoe on this point of practicality does seem a little odd:

http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/frontlaced-kirtles.html

http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/frontlaced-kirtles1.html

http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/frontlaced-kirtles2.html

[Alice the Huswyf]

Which will be where you got your pix from Lidi - Marie-Chantal created a very useful cache of images.

NB ignore Germany, Switzerland, ITALY, Poland Spain or Portugal: their fashions are driven by influences which do not apply to English clothing of the period.

Also the sleeveless left hand image with pin on sleeves - this is a rhetorical figure (see subtitle) and so will be dressed allegorically - whic will lead you up a total blind alley. This is why we have to learn to read images and not take them at apparent face value.

[lidimy]

Equally the large quantity of images with low-mid status women wearing long sleeved kirtles hitched up with skirts showing underneath throughout the century surely suggests that another full length garment is being worn underneath - of some sleeve length description?

IMO the reason why short sleeved kirtles are seen infrequently is because they are are garments for hard physical outdoor work or exceptional circumstances, worn where possible underneath a more decent dress but this isn't proof in itself that they weren't common garments. I think that the answer is not to prohibit the weaing of shortsleeved kirtles but to question the context within which they are the only visible item of clothing.

[Colin Middleton]

Al, I know that The Medieval Tailor's Assistant does feature 'paterns' for a short sleeved kirtle, and I know that Sarah does focus on English fashion, rather than continental. That said, good luck in your search, I hope that you can find some examples.

Alice, Sarah also lists a sleeveless kirtle (described in the book as a 'flat fronted kirtle'), which I know she's now referring to as a petticoat. She told us that these came into use in the late 15th C for wealthy women to wear under their closely fitted gown (for want of a better term that means 'the layer worn at the top') and are a precursor to the Tudor fashions.

However, I agree that the 'kirtle without any sleeves' design (rather than the very specific and different shape described above) is a fantasy.

As a slight asside, I'm surprised how many of those pictures show women in short sleeved kirtles with their smock sleeves showing. I would have though it frowned upon!

Best wishes,

[Alice the Huswyf]

See earlier post : "Unless possibly as an undergown for high status women, you are flemish and much later that this date as they also have a waist seam and side lacing"

And of course if you are doing very heavy or very mucky work, you do strip back basics to protect your good clothing.