Need help with Bread

[Ezykle]

Hi all

I represent a 15th century baker, with all authentic flour and techniques. I have a portable oven that's as close to the illustrationsas possible. I fired the oven a half dozen times, I've got the temperature worked out nicely. However I can't seem to get my bread fluffy inside. I get the crust nice and firm but not like stone. I have proofed the dough and knocked it back many times. Anywhere from 1 hour to 3 hours there's no difference. Is there a trick to getting the inside fluffy? I would like to keep it as close to authentic as possible. At the moment all I use is svelt flour and white flour, seasoned with a little salt. I then add yeast to a lightly sugared water to represent how during the period they would have taken the left over from brewing.

Can anyone help?

[davetmoneyer]

Hi
You need to knead the dough at least twice as long as you would for modern bread , I would recomend kneading hard for at least 15 -20mins before proving, that should give you the desired result
Dave

[nest]

Hi, along with Dave's point re extra kneading, if you are preparing the dough outdoors you may need to allow much more time for rising and proving in cooler weather

Nest( who was asked "but did they have yeast in the middle ages" only a couple of weeks ago)

PS Dave, it was nice to meet you in real life at Corfe Castle

[Ezykle]

Ah yes, I kneaded for at least 10, 15minutes. I was working within a fireplace so it was warm. So other than lots of kneading and being patient thats the secret?

[nest]

Hi
Spelt has low/poor gluten so perhaps check that the white flour has a high gluten to compensate?

[sally]

yep, spelt is always denser. Plus, its very fine line between enough kneading and too much. It is possible to overknead and toughen the bread that way.

[Ezykle]

Lovely, one of those fine line situations. I've got to use spelt because one of our members is gluten free. Bad things happen when he eats it, also it authentic. Is there any guides to when the dough is ready. I understand if its tacky in the middle its a good sign? or am I misunderstanding that?

[Midland Spinner]

A lot of people make their dough far too stiff - it needs to be slack enough to rise properly otherwise the bubbles can't expand. If you make it a bit wetter than you think you should have done initially, then knead it well it will probably be about right by the time it has proved a bit. As with many things, it's all down to experience & trial & error.

[sally]

I do better with spelt when I make a batter bread, and useI beer in it sometimes too which is good for extra fluffiness and tastes good. The 'Roman Army' bread recipe that is usually on the side of the Dove Farm spelt flour bag works very well but may not suit your dateline. How gluten free is your person? Spelt does have some gluten in, its just lower than normal flour. I'm a bit sensitive to gluten, but am fine with spelt, barley, oats and rye, whearas someone else might find that enough to hospitalise them. Depends on the individual- but if they are ok with rye you might try blends with that. Its also heavy, but people find it easier to accept a heavy rye (try a sourdough starter with it, really helps with lightness) than a heavy wheat of whatever variety

[Ezykle]

Cheers very much. The steward will be the stage in between get him to a doctor and get him to hospital. Kind of depends how much he eats, but with leaving the yeast to break it down for a long time and knocking it back hes been ok. I think I've been making the dough too stiff, I'll try it a little tackier. We try to do as authentic as possible, so I only make menchits (small white buns) and chete loaves (Brown wholemeal loaves) Anything else is considered a sweet. I'll try adding some ale to the mix and see how it comes out. Thanks very much for the information and any other tips would be greatly appreciated, you can never know too much.

[SteveC]

I have a portable oven that's as close to the illustrationsas possible. I fired the oven a half dozen times, I've got the temperature worked out nicely.

Any chance of pictures of the oven, please?
We're talking about making bread for our living history display (C17th) and we'd rather use a 'proper' oven than a 'Dutch' one and have to explain to everyone the issues with that.

Steve

[Ezykle]

I'm unsure if anyone else has any picture but the illustrations but I found these particulaly helpful

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36092/36 ... /fig35.jpg
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36092/36 ... /fig36.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ucnRnzXl1qg/T ... n15thc.JPG

Theres another illustration with bakers going through each of the steps, such as making the faggots weighing the bread etc

Hope it helps

[Ezykle]

OOO and a modern day replica

http://www.gainsborougholdhall.co.uk/kitchen5.jpg

And if I do say the creator of that oven is a skilled craftsmen, he he

[Loaflady]

Very nice! Can I ask where you found a 15th century reference to manchets? I'll be cross with myself if it's somewhere obvious and I've missed it! I know I'm probably going over old ground, but it doesn't hurt to practice loads at home first, so you get used to the feel of the dough etc before contending with the rest.
If your crust isn't crispy, you could try a higher temperature for a shorter time. How long do you heat your oven for?
You can make a good fake barm mix by adding a bottle of ale to yeast and flour to make a sponge and leaving to bubble overnight, then scooping a bit out for your bread the next morning - this has the advantage of adding a few more long fermentation goodies to your mix too. Add more flour and water and leave for the next day to use again.
It's great to hear from fellow bakers, I'll think of you all the next time it's cold and wet and It takes ages to rise! - and when I break into a loaf and tuck in!

[Ezykle]

I got the reference from 2 places, 'All the kings cooks' Peter Brears (Worth its weight in gold) and from the venerable Jack Green. I've been playing with dough for nights now, but its all good practice. I fire the oven for about 2 hours to get it temperature. I believe I can judge temperature fairly well, got a good few tests. Warm to the touch on the outside, the inside clear of soot, sticking my hand inside and finally taking a pinch of flour and making a rather amusing and entertaining poof of flames. Why did I choose such a difficult hobby!

[bilbobaglin]

The Hairy Bikers were in Spain tonight watching someone making spelt bread, you could watch it for some tips on the iplayer.

[medievalpirate]

The Hairy Bikers were in Spain tonight watching someone making spelt bread, you could watch it for some tips on the iplayer.

I'll second that, worth watching the whole series, some very nice bread being baked.

[Loaflady]

Thanks Ezykle, will check those out. I'd been unable to track down anything earlier than 16th century, and then only baked in higher status kitchens. If you're portraying a professional baker, just make sure they're referenced somewhere with regard to the assize of bread, I've been unable to find this.
Good luck and happy baking!

[gregory23b]

Does Brears reference 15th Century bread or does he extrapolate?

[Ezykle]

Brears uses a lot of references. Which along with illustrations and speaking to people have read far more than me, and from my experience the food doesnt dramatically change between the time periods. Though if anyone knows of a 15th century book on bakery I'd happily buy it, or sell a kidney.

[Hraefn]

Manchet doesn't turn up on any of the assizes of bread and ale afaik so isn't a commercially produced and regulated bread sold by bakers, but there are about eleventythree types that are from varying grades and grinds.
Peter's refs re manchet are mostly early 16thC Percy Household accounts, first recipe is late 16thC and from several descriptions they are 16-18oz wet weight
(One ref says 6-8oz which is the one most peeps seem to have latched onto ignoring the higher weighted ones) so not wee table buns.