Titanium Maille

[Cap-a-pie]

Quick question - I often get requests for Aluminium maille, mostly from LARP groups and occasionally for people just wanting a lighter alternative to mild steel for "show purposes" as opposed to heavy combat.

Overall I have never been really happy with Aluminium due in part to the oxidization issues amongst other things. So early last year I started looking at Titanium as a possible solution and im pleased to say, we are pretty much there in terms of having a finished product, so just curious as to what sort of interest this might generate.

[nathan]

Many groups are likely to be resistant to titanium in the same way they would have issues with aluminium (definitely the case for my own group(s)). Obviously titanium is harder than aluminium, will it stand up to rebated steel combat or is it still realisticly a costume only option?

Main factor for anyone else would be price I think, I would expect titanium to be significantly more expensive than steel, do you have any rough figures?.

[Cap-a-pie]

Thanks for the reply Nathan, in terms of steel combat this is something I would want to test before taking the next step and providing it as a stock item. In theory, well slightly more than a theory as have already run some tests on smaller sections its not bad. My main reservation and something im fussy about is with regards the general look as a whole garment, this is the thing I get picky with in terms of seeing plastic in movies. The flow with plastic is, well lets face it non existent, hence my initial look at Aluminium. Although that was specifically for costume only.

In terms of cost, it doesn't come cheap, im still working on a few options at this stage but I can certainly say it will be more than wedge riveted mild steel.

Will keep you posted with the "stress" tests.

[Edmund the Marshal]

I can see the weight advantage for it being used on horse back. However depends on how sparkly it is.

[SirRustbucket]

What I am still waiting for is nice, sparkly tinned maille. Not that I can afford it, it would just be nice to see a knight running around in gleaming splendor, as opposed to looking like a bucket of rust.

[bjarkileach]

The SCA use titanium maille allot, and it apparently stands up well to their full contact rattan combat.

[Hobbitstomper]

Titanium is about as strong as mild steel and half the weight. Alloy titanum is strionger but probably too difficult to make in to mail at reasonable cost.

Based on the cost of 20000 titanium rings (you can buy butted links) and adding it to the cost of a rivetted mail shirt, it comes out as too expensive for me.

However, titanium mittens and chausse would be a great idea. Less weight at the ends of limbs is a good idea. Mittens don't take much mail to make so the increased material cost would be acceptable.

[Tod]

I've just started an early 16th century group and titanium or ali mail is completely banned, any one turning up with plastic mail will be set on fire whilst wearing it. I can't see how it can be justified if you are doing re-enactment but if its for SCA LARP etc I see no problem. They sell a lot of it in Americaland, but its used by people who hit each other with sticks wrapped in tape. In that context why not.

[Martin]

Im no expert lol, but surely maille is only to protect against cuts ? its the gambi underneath that needs to be sturdy ? Ive seen bods in excellent riveted maille reduced to crying wrecks cos their gambi was thin as foo and did nothing to stop the concussive shock coming through the maille ( though shiny shiny looks crap IMHO )

[Cap-a-pie]

Im no expert lol, but surely maille is only to protect against cuts ? its the gambi underneath that needs to be sturdy

yep spot on Martin, maille is a composite armour, hence why I always cringe when people do tests of it against a block of wood as opposed to a layered gambeson of some sorts.

Well in terms of the look of the maille it certainly will not be sparkly, hopefully I will have one on display very soon so feel free to drop in and have a look. At this stage it is very much an experiment, my wedge riveted maille is very popular with those on horseback as it is significantly lighter than the round riveted so it maybe that will do for now, but figured worth investigating other options. Plastic was a big no go area in my opinion.

Anyway thanks for the comments

[Colin Middleton]

I would have expected aluminium mail to come apart under the stress as you move about with it on (some mild steel does too). The titanium I would expect to be strong enough to prevent that, but would be woried about the effort of making alterations in it. Is it harder to work?

Not that I care much, as I always use Mark's lovely steel rings!

[Cap-a-pie]

Much harder to work Colin, stick with the mild steel if you want to alter. TBH I was not expecting a big rush from the re enactment scene, main reason for looking at this was LARP and perhaps movies. Oh and yes the aluminium doesn't hold up to harsh treatment.

[SirRustbucket]

Regarding what Martin said: you'd be surprised how much force maille actually takes out of a blow, especially if it's heavy. Thus unsurprisingly 16ga round rings pad you better than 18ga flat rings.
In my vike days I was quite happy with a heavy maille shirt worn over a tunic of thick felt. I borrowed someone's flat ring shirt a shirt while ago, which weighs next to noting, and I still got hurt wearing it over a thick gambeson.

And since we are on the subject of weight: how light does it really need to be? The flatring weave is already so ludicrously light, you can pick up a hauberk with your middle finger only. Still too heavy??? I think people ought to man the f**k up. For the money spent on a titanium shirt you can afford gym membership for a few years and grow some backbone. You'll look more authentic also (as in fighting fit, not overweight and slow).

The only concession I will make is when someone has medical issues, such as back problems. In these cases an aluminum shirt (riveted) might be a godsend. I have heard you can age them somehow, not sure... I mean, sure, it won't hold up to harsh treatment at all. But if you are already easily injured, perhaps you ought to take a step back and adjust your fighting style.

Right, rant ends here. My apologies to all concerned.

[Langley]

You want to be making mithril shirts Mark....

[Cap-a-pie]

End of the day it all depends on what you are trying to acheive or show and also as the above post mentions who for.

Granted really heavy maille will take the blow out but then what does this really show. When I started looking at the weights and gauge of original maille I was rather surprised how light some of the stuff was, the first real maille shirt I picked up could also be picked up with your middle finger.

In fact this is one of the reasons why we started doing the 18gauge round ring both for early period and late C15th as it seemed much closer than the 16gauge stuff around.

As mentioned earlier, maille does appear to be a composite type of armour, examples of padding with 25 layers of linen amongst other things being cited for one. I wonder how many gambesons around are constructed like this, certainly its one factor that seems to get missed, yes I appreciate for early periods the jury is still out on this one and I am sure will be for some quite considerable time.

As far as how light can you go I think we also need to consider the general look of maille when it's used and in what context, certainly comparing butted vs the riveted against original examples, the way the butted hangs is in my opinion significantly different. The Aluminium looks odd that's for sure, as does plastic.

Having recently seen Henry V at the Globe with the actors wearing plate but alongside this what looked like knitted maille. ahhhhhhh but that was just my cringe moment, im sure the majority of the audience didn't notice. Incidentally, I still enjoyed the performance despite this.

Personally I think as long as we are aware of the inacuracies and don't try to hide the fact. (I still hear comments of look how heavy this, as a split ring washer shirt is given to a member of the public) Then I think it all boils down to, as I said earlier, what you are trying to show or what you are doing with it, certainly people should not expect to go into a melee wearing plastic armour against metal weapons and think they are going to walk out bruise free. Although I guess that's much the same as wearing anthing come to think of it.

[Langley]

I also suspect that part of the way maille works it's magic is that it is tinh/soft enough to be deformable so it acts like the crumple zone of a car and absorbs some of the force. Yes, you need a good padded linen armour underneath - that is why it is called linen armour and not underwear. When you start thinking about how things were made you need to think about WHY they were made and then thinks of every trick of the p[hysics of the situation to enable it to do it's job. Deformability is one of those. I also think there is a certain amount of prevention of a sharp blade cutting involved. Maille is very slppery slidey stuff when made well and right soze for the wearer (you see too much stretched over big blokes!). A blade cuts when it can slide over something which is staying still. You can do the trick with grasping a sharp blade without injusry but would not want it to slide across your palm. If you have maille rings deform and grip the blade then as the blade is drawn over the garment, the maille moves with it but there is no relative movement of the blade over the individual rings hence no cutting action. First time I have put this theory in writing despite haveing mused on it for quite a few years since the days of the Wallace Collection study days which led Steve from Forth Armoury to design his naille tool for rivetting so what are your thoughts people?

[Cap-a-pie]

Langley, yes I totally agree with your crumple zone idea, just looking at the fluid nature of maille and as you say maille the right size as opposed to stretched, it has some interesting properties. Certainly when you look how easy it is to repair even with minimal equipment it kind of begs the question that this deformity would not have been an issue in some respects.

[Colin Middleton]

Well, I thought that this was going to be a quite fun, 'throw away' topic and now you've started adding interesting information to it, so I need to keep track of it (need data, neeeed dataaaa...).

Your theory sounds pretty solid Langley.

I work with a guy who does LARP. He reckons that you'll have a market, but it'll be small because of the cost.

BTW, I was doing some mail making at the weekend at a show and som kids come over from the SK camp. One of them picked up a sheet of your mail and said "it's like silk, but made of metal".

[Hobbitstomper]

My multi layer linen armour works great with mail but is 5kg instead of a more normal re-eactment 2Kg. For a multi layer gambeson that works without mail it is 8kg. For a knee length body warmer style body protection (2cm thick to go over a normal gambeson) it is a extra 10kg.

Lighter armour is a good idea.

A possible problem with LARP is you could be competing with welded stainless butchers mail shirts.

[Alice the Huswyf]

Titanium links would have been ideal for that bikin enquiry you had langley - albiet a bit fluffy and girlie for the enquirers'- er - 'tastes'

[Langley]

Never did get any of the shots the professional took despite promises but this is off my phone from the photoshoot for a new fashion magazine with one of Mark's maille skirts being worn by the young lady. Note how she is stroking it down her thigh. I see this image in my mind's eye every time I put it on now...

[Cap-a-pie]

LOL nice one Langley, was that the lady that had it wrapped around her a few times.

[Langley]

Yes - my waist measurement is a multiple of hers - and I am not mentioning the multiplier! Does look better on her I have to admit!

[Raconteur Troubadour]

The Case for Titanium
The physical qualities of titanium make it a preferable for cars, aerospace etc and its corrosion resistance and biological compatibility make it useful in a variety of applications like surgical implants, but it is pricey when compared to steel.
When compared to steel, titanium has exceptional resistance to acids (sweat), alkalis, and industrial chemicals (that stuff the Poles drink at Tewkesbury!). Titanium is considered a better combination of high strength and low weight ratios when compared to steel, but only when weight is critical (like on supercars and aircraft). Titanium is non-poisonous and biologically inert, but steel is used where there is a need for a hardened material, like axles for cars or trucks, as titanium structures do not guarantee longevity and have a fatigue limit. Steel is corrosive, rusts, stains, and is heavier than titanium. Steel’s density is 7.85 g/cm3, and titanium is 56% of that.Titanium can withstand high heat without any reduction of weight which carbon steel cannot, although this only happens around 2,700 degrees F (A bit hot, even for those of us wearing full armour in summer). If we compare the heat and cold stability of titanium versus steel, titanium is more thermally stable than steel, which makes it an excellent choice for subzero weather because it does not break, whereas steel can shatter. Another advantage that titanium has over steel is that it can be flexed or bowed repeatedly, and it is flexible enough to not to rupture like steel.


The Case for Steel
Steel is preferred in industries where strength is more important than weight. The best steel is stronger than titanium alloys, although in unalloyed condition, titanium is 45% lighter, and as strong as steel. Steel is much cheaper and easier to work, easier to repair.

Summary:

1. Steel is stronger, but is more fatigue prone than titanium.

3. Steel can shatter, whereas titanium can withstand high and low temperatures.

4. Steel is magnetic and corrosive when compared to titanium that is nonmagnetic and anti corrosive.

5. Steel is preferred when strength is needed in a hard material, and titanium is preferred where a lightweight and strong material is required.

6. Most of Titaniums advantages don't apply to maille, except for the weight, so...........:

Titanium would be good for relatively wealthy, older (or less fit) reenactors, those who can't be bothered with all the cleaning afterwards or for those who just like the thought of running about in 21st century materials.

By the way, if you want 'Mithril', you need the extremely rare 'wurtzite' Boron Nitride (wBN) modified structure applied as a powder coating over a carbon nanotube matrix. It's surface would then be harder than diamond and if a small voltage is applied to it, then it emits UV light in the range 215–250 nm.

[Fox]

...if a small voltage is applied to it, then it emits UV light in the range 215–250 nm

[Langley]

The Case for Titanium
By the way, if you want 'Mithril', you need the extremely rare 'wurtzite' Boron Nitride (wBN) modified structure applied as a powder coating over a carbon nanotube matrix. It's surface would then be harder than diamond and if a small voltage is applied to it, then it emits UV light in the range 215–250 nm.

Peddler for Web.jpg

Oh now you have done it. I happen to know someone who has access to the technology for powder coating with exotic materials (normally rocket nosecones)... Want... Want.. WAAAAAANT!