Pictoral evidence of women fighting in C14th

[The Methley Archer]

MLD, I will gladly admit, in these matters i know nothing

[Karen Larsdatter]

Bonus point to assist this argument goes to the first person to post pictorial evidence of aliens in the 15th century.

Take a good look at Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights. Whole thing's full of aliens.

[gregory23b]

"So, how did I do, what is the picture of?"


Sounds good to me, what is the picture of?

[Merlon.]

The picture in question is in Wikimedia common files from which most websites display it. The attribution is from a 2002 humanities course at Revelle College San Diego.
KedlestonCraig got their copy of the picture from http://hiddentradition.abrahadabra.net/?page_id=40 - the filename certainly matches-.
Sadly neither site gives any details of the origin of the picture.

[gregory23b]

Unfortunately, that site, amongst others, fails to make the right, ie none, reference, so the image is invalid as a source of evidence, as someone said earlier, for all we know, she might be the personification of a female deity, which then is not actually evidence to their aim, or it might .....Graaaa

[Darren Mac]

Nothing to do with the thread, but any chance of that picture without Slimer please.

Chris, I downloaded the image from http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/master/zunk_fl/15_paint/3/02archer.html

Its a late 15th century master depicting an archery festival, but then I reckon you have surmised that.

[The Methley Archer]

Thanks very much.

I'm very intrested in the archer with the breast plate in the centre bottom.

Back on topic, I have seen in Warbow I think, of archers supporting a beach landing. The defending forces from the town include women. No idea of it's origin.

[Colin Middleton]

A friend and I posted that one up here and got thoroughly abused for it. Eventually some-one was kind enough to tell us that it comes from a book about Greek myths (I think it was abouy Ulicese) and depicts a landing where they were attacked by amazons. So, I'm afraid that I's no evidence at all for women fighting, it's just mythology...

[The Methley Archer]

Well I watched the non disney Mulan film last night, and i'm all for women fighting like that...hang on she pretended to be a man.

[Colin Middleton]

I'm convinced that things like that happened throughout history. It's just that there's no records of it from the MA.

[Marcus Woodhouse]

All kinds of strange one off incidents and odd happensing s have occoured throughout history. I'm sure that England was visited by embassies from Turkey and Persia but that would not be providence of Janissaries and Hashishwuim fighters joining in the ruckus.

[the real lord duvet]

All kinds of strange one off incidents and odd happensing s have occoured throughout history. I'm sure that England was visited by embassies from Turkey and Persia but that would not be providence of Janissaries and Hashishwuim fighters joining in the ruckus.

But how about wandering spanish noblemen finding employment on the welsh marched?

[Tomsk]

Just some food for thought..
"The medieval solder" page 116..
.."The schilling cronicles often show women marching with the troops carrying canteens for the thirsty soldiers...one wears a dress in cantonal colours,and clearly holds an offically recognised position.........Twice women are shown armed with halberds;and once a woman is depicted as a member of a company of handgunners - she appears to carry her own gun,powder flask ans bullet bag,and wears a red dress and the usual white headcloth and fringe"

"In louis XI's time french master gunners were free to recruit what helpers they needed to man the guns,and on occasion are know to of enlisted their own wives"

I dont have the schilling pictures to see for myself,but on reading this it looks like female water-carriers on the battlefield could well of existed at the back of the lines.The two women carrying halberds may of just been "carrying them for a mate" (as there is no mention of armour),though the pic would give more info.
The hand-gunner (as she is carrying all the correct equipment to use the gun she is carrying) does may it plausible for female hand-gunners (again the pic might give more insight).
Master gunners wives being enlisted to help man the guns,no reference is given for this but I think the authors are know for their researching so gain this may be plausible (though could the master-gunner just be putting his wife on the payrole for extra money and that she never helped man the gun).

Tomsk

[the real lord duvet]

one of my friends has videos of a large girl in a camoflage bikini firing an ak47.... Its mesmerizing.

In 400 year what are chances that could be seen as evidence of the uniforms of women soldiers in the late 20th c?

You never know, women carrying swords could be medieval soft porn too?

[Marcus Woodhouse]

Tomsk, G.E. wrote that 20 years ago and even then people were unsure of where he got all his ideas from, some of his facts seem to be bent to fit his own opinons.
There are indeed women carrying canteens, halberds and handgonnes in some of the images of the Schilling chronicles.
All are images of an armies on the march, none of of women drawn up in ranks to fight.
My own interpretaion, for what it is worth, is that the women are carrying stuff for husbands, brothers, fathers, on the march.
The Swiss and Burgundians documented who fought where and when with some gusto and vigour, they do not mention women fighting as soldiers, ever, save in the same circumstances as have been mentioned.
Now I suppose that when you take into account the fact that there were many more seiges then there ever were pitched battles, then you could argue with conviction that women did, or potentially did, a lot of fighting. But I don't think that this was the intention of the original post's request.
I'd take what is written in the Medieval Soldier with a pinch of salt, I don't think it should be regarded as being a scholarly read.

[Colin Middleton]

Twice women are shown armed with halberds;

Those pictures are re-drawn by Gerry Embleton in one of the Dragon magasine for tyhe CoSG. The do appear to be carrying the halberds, but ther's no indication whether they will be fighting with them or not.

[Tomsk]

I agree about the Halberd women were probably just carrying them and not intending to use them (hence my comment about no armour and carrying them for a mate).

Im more interested about where the reference about wives enlisted to serve on the cannons comes from.Whether the women mentioned actually did work or not (as a way of a payrole boost),
the fact that if it was mentioned makes it possible/acceptable/possibly already happening?.

Tomsk

[Lady Jane Rochester]

women gladiators - any takers?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/herefordand ... 780862.stm

Lady "no, I'm Spartacus" Rochester

[KedlestonCraig]

"Augustine, La Cité de Dieu" illuminated by maître François

image002.jpg (25.43 KiB) Viewed 1553 times

image001.jpg (25.37 KiB) Viewed 1553 times

[the real lord duvet]

has the first one stabbed herself?

[The Methley Archer]

Kirtles over the armour?

No helmets but invincible henins?

[KedlestonCraig]

The picture in question is in Wikimedia common files from which most websites display it. The attribution is from a 2002 humanities course at Revelle College San Diego.
KedlestonCraig got their copy of the picture from http://hiddentradition.abrahadabra.net/?page_id=40 - the filename certainly matches-.
Sadly neither site gives any details of the origin of the picture.

usually if a picture is common enough someone on here recognises it - it doesn't bring any particular story to mind from classical mythology to me anyway

[gregory23b]

A 15th C version of St Augustine's, City of God against the Pagans, I don't know the actual story, but it is a classical one, not a representation of female fighters in the 15thc, try a few centuries earlier. It has a lot to do with the sacking of rome, irresolute worshippers, etc, a theologian type, please elaborate for us munchkins.

[Colin Middleton]

has the first one stabbed herself?

Yes. I suspect that she doesn't want to be taken prisoner.

I'd love to know the story and why the women are wearing armour. It seems very prepared to have just been beseiged...

[Brother Ranulf]

St Augustine wrote De Civitate Dei early in the 5th century. It was (and is) a monumental work in 22 books, aimed in part at restoring confidence among Christians after the sack of Rome by Goths in 410 AD but actually much more than that. It has been described as a "literary tombstone" to the Roman Empire, "an important work on religious lore, philosophy and history" and "a work that sets out religious doctrine for the next thousand years".

The City of God in its title refers not to Rome but to Heaven; Rome is used for comparison between the earthly and Heavenly kingdoms. I have not read all 22 books, but it seems unlikely to me that there is any specific mention of women fighting, in armour or otherwise; under "women" the indexes only refer to typically theological questions such as whether women will be resurrected with the bodies of men, or remain as women (Augustine supports the idea of them remaining as women, since then there will be no sin attached to them). He is not at all concerned with military matters and there is no such detail in any of the bits I have read.

As someone pointed out, the illustrations shown in the 15th century manuscript copy of Augustine's work are fanciful and typical of such "historical" works - they had to be made as shocking and striking as possible, the more outlandish the better. Including women in men's roles is simply part of that mindset, not evidence for it ever happening.

[Grymm]

http://www.medievalists.net/2008/12/11/women-in-the-military-scholastic-arguments-and-medieval-images-of-female-warriors/

[Langley]

Thaks for the link Grymm. Have looked at it and the other thesis link and downloaded both and spread them around the group!

[kayleaeloise]

The hand-gunner (as she is carrying all the correct equipment to use the gun she is carrying) does may it plausible for female hand-gunners (again the pic might give more insight).

Tomsk

I have a copy of this picture and also another one from the schilling chronicles showing a female firing a handgun, ok it is depicted as during a siege, but the fact that it is a hand gun is ery unusual, as its not the sort of weapon a woman would have had lying around to help defend her city or somthing, anyways ill pos them up later when im at home and slightly more coherant!

[Marcus Woodhouse]

Exactly the kind of thing that a city would have on hand to defend the ,er, city though. And like a crossbow easy to teach anyone (even a weak pathetic woman) how to be used with enough skill to defend a town or city wall.
And I'm quite happy to accept women fighting to defend their towns against beseigers. Indeed a number of French towns still have processions led by women dressed as Jeanne de Hache or Mariane de Gonne because these women showed that they were everyything but weak and pathetic and continued fighting even after their male comrades had given up!
(And yes they probably did cook a meal, watch the kids and get the cat defleaed at the same time.)

[Wynflaed]

women gladiators - any takers?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/herefordand ... 780862.stm

Lady "no, I'm Spartacus" Rochester

Plenty of evidence for gladiatrixes!