18th century French leather powder flask.

[Henrik Bjoern Boegh]

Hi,

Whilst strolling through ebay looking at weaponry etc. I stumbled over this French leather powder flask. ( Ebay ID: 170160037503 )
The seller doesn't know the exact date. And this is what the seller tells about the flask: Rare and seldom encountered, this wonderful old French Military Regulation Powder Flask dates from the 17th/18th Century and has survived in excellent, original condition. The body is constructed of a molded hard leather and wears a carved wooden plug that screws into place. Overall measuring 9 inches tall by 5 inches across.
Interesting feature is the screw type plug.
Although it doesn't look quite similar to the flasks shown in Stuart Reids books, might it be the same type of powder flask as issued with the garboussiers, or is this of earlier or later type?

Cheers,
Henrik

[Neibelungen]

There's a similar style of powder flask illustrated in Petard's Equipements Millitaires Vol 1 (No 108) which he tentatively identifies as possibly Swiss of about 1752-60 before the rigid boxes came into use.

[Tod]

I made a few of these last year, and some small er ones for priming. Also I have just finished a slightly larger one for DB, I just have to fit a brass spout and plug. Look in Like Hungry Wolves, and Sword and Sorrows. There are some in there. French issue mostly. Irish Piquets etc. With a screw in plug this one is most likely civilian.

[Henrik Bjoern Boegh]

Yes, I thought the screw plug looked a bit unpractical if the goal was to charge rapidly.

One of the reasons the leather flask caught my eye is because I've only seen two Scottish portraits showing powder horns and flasks. One with a leather flask and the other with the flat type Scottish powder horn.

Cheers,
Henrik

[Tod]

I just had a closer look, and I don't think that stopper was originally fitted to that bottle.
The thread is too long and it doesn't "sit" right.
Maybe a later edition.

[Tod]

And having taken a more detailed look there is no powder residue on the end of the stopper.

[Le Loup]

Good post, and a great image. Thank you.
Regards, Le Loup.

[Andy R]

Leather flasks were in use in the late c17th to to 1st quarter of the 18th century in the French army. Used in conjunction with the gargousier or gibearn depending on time and the whim of the army in that year.

They were in use concurrently with horn flasks which were favoured, and by the end of the WSS had replaced them.

The leather flasks fared none to well in the field which is why they were replaced.

There was a lot of investigation by the French army in this time with different materials. One style of gargousier was binned as it rotted in double quick time.

[Le Loup]

I have found no primary documentation that priming horns or flasks existed before the 20th century. I have two original books, one 18th century, and the other 19th century, The Shooters Guide 1816, and An Essay On Shooting 1789. Neither of these mention priming horns or flasks and they go into the shooter's needs in detail.



A leather French powder horn. Images supplied By Steven Lallioff.

[Andy R]

There is information, but they do not look like that.

More like the one in the first post, but horn, with a spout on top and brass rings on eaither side allow the strap to pass through.

I can't remember the name of the french military document, biut there is certainly a primary source for the troupe de terre that displays them.

I will endevour to dig them out

[Le Loup]

There is information, but they do not look like that.

More like the one in the first post, but horn, with a spout on top and brass rings on eaither side allow the strap to pass through.

I can't remember the name of the french military document, biut there is certainly a primary source for the troupe de terre that displays them.

I will endevour to dig them out

I would be very interested to see it, thank you. The small powder horns that have been found are now considered to be pistol horns.

[Andy R]

these are shown as standard infantry equipment for the Troupe de Terre to work in tandem with the gibearn.

two quotes from a modern source drawing on primary evidence...

the body was of leather, wood covered with leather, or horn

leather was replaced with horn in 1737. This material, though superior in terms of being waterproof, cracked, and the powder was lost

[Vic James]

I agree with Andy R , the leather flask is not like the issue french powder flasks
of the 18thC I`ve seen. `Osprey , Louis Army [3] ` page 5 has photo of the
powder flask `horn`1730s as Andy describes . Though due to Louis reforms
of the army in the 1740 , the lever and spring cut off was replaced by a simple
wood plug .
Le Loup ,, The powder horn has been in continous use since the 15thC ,,
hunt out `Melchoir Feselen siege of Alesia 1533` and see the same power
horns we can buy today in excelent detail . Its not untill around the 1570
that other materials were used , copper/lether , and then ,,in the shape
of a cow horn . At the same `ish` time the horn was being shortern
and flatten to make the curved flask , then coypied in wood ,leather and metal
to achive the banana shape common for military use , into the early 18thC.

vic

[Vic James]

Sorry ,,just read my last post ,, That should have said `1540s` .
Theres a copper powder`horn`,eg in the shape of a cow horn, but
made of copper in the Victoria n Albert museum dated 1547.
vic

[wurzul]

I think Loup's point is that seperate flasks/horns for priming on small arms were a C19th innovation, but I may be mistaken. Bertrand Malvaux's catalogue for 2009 features a large number of truncated horn flasks, some of which are the items featured in Petard's Equipement militaires, vol i. There is also a leather or leather covered flask (below).

[Andy R]

Hi Ben,

the top middle, and top right are similar to the equipment used by the TdT.

The period drill shows loading from the cartridge if I remember right.......

The flask may have been a back up powder store. Gargousiers on average only held 9 cartridges, but there were some bigger ones available.