Getting 'properly' into it

[The Other Graham]

Hi,

I'm new here and I have something of a rambling post. I've always been interested in history but last year decided to give reenactment a try. I had something of a false start in 2011, so I'm preparing to have another go in 2012.

Not knowing anyone inside the hobby I searched on the internet for various terms and last January came across the Medieval Siege Society and got in contact with them.

I found a local group and went along and chatted to them on one of their socials, then went to their AGM/skills weekend last February. They're a friendly and supportive bunch and I decided to have a go at portraying an archer. So I booked myself onto a 'normal' target archery club's beginner course and have been shooting once or twice a week since. The archery side is going very well- I won't be winning any competitions any time soon, but I'm getting good enough not to embarass myself on the battlefield or shoot my own men in the back.

I picked up some bits and pieces of soft kit from a visit up to TORM, and made it to three of MSS's medium-sized shows- Hedingham, Weald Park and Welwyn - all representing Wars of the Roses period events. With borrowed weapons and armour (see 'friendly and supportive bunch' above) I participated in the battle displays, which I did enjoy. The trouble is I didn't really enjoy the rest of the event.

I'm not sure what it is or what I can do to get more out of the events. Once all the setup had been done and the public arrived, I found myself getting bored with nothing much to do. I'm not a skilled craftsperson, nor am I musical. I'm part of a very friendly group, but I think I'd prefer to be rushed off my feet doing *stuff* all day than feeling like set dressing sitting in camp. So part of the question is - what do you do all day?

I had intended to engage with the public more and tell them about campaign life etc, but I've recently realised I have a slight problem with not being that engaged with the WOTR period myself.

Although the MSS officially covers 1350-1490, the overwhelming majority of events are set during the Wars of the Roses rather than the Hundred Years War. In the medieval period, I'd be more interested in the Hundred Years War than the Wars of the Roses, and more interested still in the Barons Wars and Crusades. So the other part of the question is: how do you gain enthusiasm for a particular subset of a period?

Thank you for reading this far, please share your thoughts.

Graham

[lucy the tudor]

Hmmm,
Learn how to make arrows, your fellows will love you, the visitors will be fascinated, and if you get really good at it, you will be run off your feet?

[Medicus Matt]

how do you gain enthusiasm for a particular subset of a period?

Honestly? I don't think you can. I'd advise anyone who was just starting out to only get involved in a period that they've already got an interest in.
I suppose if all you do is take part in battles and then get changed it doesn't matter so much but if you want to get involved in camp life and interact with the public, you're going to have to do some reading, have an understanding of the period and, at the very least, your place in it. Nothing worse than trying to read and retain information on a subject you have no real interest in, be it history or anything else.

Try to get along to see other groups at larger multiperiod events in 2012 (particularly Kelmarsh) and chat to any who portray periods and/or activities that take your fancy.

[Neil of Ormsheim]

Chop wood and fetch water - your cooks will love you and you will get extra-big portions at dinner. Teach yourself how to play games like Nine-Mens Morris or Backgammon (if you don't know how already) and introduce them to the audience, let them beat you a couple of times then introduce the idea of gambling ( ). Making bowstrings from linnen thread is an easy enough task to master and your fellow archers will always be snapping a string or two.

Basically, what I am saying is that there are lots of easy to transport / demonstrate / talk about skills that are not period specific so do not need specialist knowledge of that particular era.

[acecat999]

failing that

it might be you're not compatable with the group/household , perhaps they don't do stuff you might like. perhaps they arn't doing things to get you interested.

go to beer tent and get drunk, lose you inhibitions and learn which of the groups you get on with.

you'll make new friends who will show you why they enjoy it so much.

[Medicus Matt]

, perhaps they don't do stuff you might like. .

Yes; they like the period that they portray and he doesn't.

[acecat999]

matt

i read

"I picked up some bits and pieces of soft kit from a visit up to TORM, and made it to three of MSS's medium-sized shows- Hedingham, Weald Park and Welwyn - all representing Wars of the Roses period events. With borrowed weapons and armour (see 'friendly and supportive bunch' above) I participated in the battle displays, which I did enjoy. The trouble is I didn't really enjoy the rest of the event.

I'm not sure what it is or what I can do to get more out of the events. Once all the setup had been done and the public arrived, I found myself getting bored with nothing much to do. I'm not a skilled craftsperson, nor am I musical. I'm part of a very friendly group, but I think I'd prefer to be rushed off my feet doing *stuff* all day than feeling like set dressing sitting in camp. So part of the question is - what do you do all day?"

my interpretation for what is worth is that its not as much he doesn't identify with the period as much as hasn't had anyone try to involve him in anything more than the set up, take down and battle of the event. he identified with the period enough to join and buy some kit afterall.

Its a group failing to see its members as anything more than additional body to do their work and provide a bit of funding. some groups don't allow new members to find their own way preferring to push them in roles that the group needs rather than the individual wants.

giving him a chance to get involved more could build on the initial interest.

failing that as others have said sell your kit and do something you will enjoy.

his question was what do you do all day - the answer is chat, cook, make new friends and wander about watching the event.

[cloudy-cola-corp]

pretty much all has been said talk, learn, practise swordsmanship, make up some medieval board games change the rules about so its new, learn to fix kit or make new kit, whittle then see if the mops want to buy anyof the stuff you make, make tent pegs (never too many tent pegs..ever) learn to play a period instrument just general anything to amuse yourself yeah it gets dull if you just sit and polish armour all day but try just doing a little of everything you can think of till you find something you really enjoy or just do what ever your in the mood for.. if all your group is up to something see if you can lend a hand if not chat to the camps around you

[The_Kyle]

Have a look through This site and see if anything takes your fancy?

[Medicus Matt]

my interpretation for what is worth is that its not as much he doesn't identify with the period as much as hasn't had anyone try to involve him in anything more than the set up, take down and battle of the event. he identified with the period enough to join and buy some kit afterall.

More like he found a local group and joined them because they seemed friendly, now:-

I've recently realised I have a slight problem with not being that engaged with the WOTR period myself.

Although the MSS officially covers 1350-1490, the overwhelming majority of events are set during the Wars of the Roses rather than the Hundred Years War. In the medieval period, I'd be more interested in the Hundred Years War than the Wars of the Roses, and more interested still in the Barons Wars and Crusades. So the other part of the question is: how do you gain enthusiasm for a particular subset of a period?

I made the same mistake. Spent years in a group that I joined because they were 'local' but doing a period that I wasn't that interested in and, as a result, never learned much and didn't engage with the MOPs. Once I'd changed to a (for me) more interesting period, I learned more about the history of it, developed a passion for the material culture of it and learned some practical skills to allow me to demonstrate some aspects of that culture or just bore the *rse off MOPs by talking about it for hours.
I wouldn't have done any of that if I hadn't been interested in the period. Although I suppose it is possible to develop an interest in a historical period, why bother when you're already keen on two or three others?

[steve stanley]

I think a lot of people can relate to having been part of a friendly group that just doesn't quite press the right buttons......Look around,find one one that portrays your particular obssession!.....Stay friends with all,but follow what you really want to do.....Otherwise,the frustration will build and build........

[Marcus Woodhouse]

Having been in three groups dispite enjoying the specific period I now re-enact and having re-encated other periods before finding my "home", it was my own experience that no matter how freindly the group is if you don't feel as if you fit in then with all the will in the owrld you never will. I'd advise you to say exactly that and explain that it not a reflection on the members either as a group or individually (so you don't leave under a cloud) and go off and find some other group. If you had posted and said you were thinking of re-enacting I expect most people would be advising you to visit some events talk to different groups and find out which period you really want to re-enact BEFORE making the jump and joining one.

[steve stanley]

It's not an uncommon situation.......Even within a given period, many people end up changing from the group they originally joined as they find others are closer to what they want to do............

[Graham Ashford]

Hi there

If I have understood your post correctly here's what I woudl suggest:

If you aren't too entrenched in the group and period you ar doing then I might consider a change to another group/society that scratches the time itch part of the hobby. But as someone said there are ways of handling that sort of thing well and there are other ways, best of luck on that path

However, if the WoTR lot scratch a combative itch for you and you find yourself hunkering for something else to do in the none fighting times then most groups love to have people skilled or even semi-skilled in various medieval tasks/crafts or information that could easily fill up the time, allow you to talk with the public and learn something that there aren't lots of people already doing.

If you enjoy archery there are lots of different archery types out there, that you could use most of your kit for, poachers spring to mind, with a selection of arrow heads, some of the history of poaching, medieval snares, camouflage, punishments etc ...

Failing that there are lots of other skills, almost innumerable that might tickle your fancy and involve minimal outlay that potentially aren't covered elsewhere or are and you coudl join in with the people already doing it and form a little interest group yourselves?

Here's a couple that spring to my mind to help you get started:
Calligraphy: Quill making, ink making, illumination, script preparation, parchment making ... oh and calligraphy.
Cooking: What herbs and spices are available and the associated stories, rich food, poor food, campaign foods and preservation (the dried out hard stuff )
Model making: this lets you bring almost any topic from seige craft to cathedral building, campaign battle moves to trout fishing to an audience and lets you enjoy making the models yourself to bring. I once knew a guy that gave a talk on sieges based on a castle model he had built that showed how they gauged the wall heights prior to assault (very embarrassing turning up with the wrong length of ladders), to mining underneath etc .... (although be sure to find an area/place that the group don't mind models being taken to.

I guess what I am some of the above are saying is that just about every possible job in the medieval world is doable in some form or other at shows that the public will sit and listen to and generally really enjoy and can open out into very involving hobbies in their own right for you. (This was how I ended up working for myself and I am sure many others have to ... but be sure to start as a hobby, not as a career path )

Hope this helps and best of luck to you whatever you choose to do.

Graham

[The Other Graham]

I spent so long writing a thorough reply that the forum logged me out and ate the post. So excuse my brevity.

Thanks to all those who responded. I'm a little concerned by those who are suggesting just leaving the immediate group or society as a whole. I certainly don't agree that "Its a group failing to see its members as anything more than additional body to do their work and provide a bit of funding. some groups don't allow new members to find their own way preferring to push them in roles that the group needs rather than the individual wants." I am really not here to assign blame.

What I do want to do is take a wider view of reenactment and consider what else is out there to do. I am not a skilled craftsman, although it seems every other reenactor I've met is either a craftsperson or talented musician or both. I have given some things a try - basic beeswax candle making went horribly wrong. And the less said about me attempting music the better.

What about the education side? As in specifically focussing on the education value of what's around me. Does mean I have to dig into the detail of the period more, but the best way to learn about a subject is to teach it. No, I'm not a teacher IRL, I'm an accountant. But no-one wants to see C15th bookkeeping techniques.

[Phil the Grips]

But no-one wants to see C15th bookkeeping techniques.

Yes they do. I can think of one chap who does just that and Guthrie has done it for Kentwell (C16th) with some success.

Showing people how to use a counting board is very engaging if done well and unusual enough that it catches the attention- especially watching people trying to work in base 12 instead of base 10 and using Roman numerals instead of Arabic numbers, then there's all the scribing, note-taking and so on which adds in intersting things like pens, ink and writing. That's before you get into coins, forgery, legal penalties, taxation and tax gathering. It even lends itself to a bit acting if one can show that there is a bit of a fiddle going on in camp which breaks out into a fight.

Maybe you won't want to do a "fancydress" version of your dayjob in your time off but it's a common starting place for people to develop their role in a group as they can use the comparison between techniques then and now as a hook.

[Graham Ashford]

I agree with everything Phil said. Most members of the public and reenactors would be quite interested in how ths sort of thing worked back in the day without all the modern appliances and techniques we have today. I am no expert but I believe that most of the systems that have failed most of us so recently were born out of the 14th - 15th centuries, you would probably have very little trouble in coming up with plenty of contemporary example of all the trouble we are in at the moment ... I seem to recall somewhere that the Italians still blame us for a recession (or something like one) caused by Edward III (?) around the 100 years war time for loans secured against wool that were spread out across most of the Northern Italian merchants/bankers that then fell in on itself when he didn't pay (but I could be very wrong).

Then as Phil said all the nitty gritty of how they did things on a less grand, day to day scale would be interesting to a lot of people. You've peaked my interest already

But as Phil said, it all depends on whether you feel you could cope with a historic version of your day job? They could be far enough removed from one another to keep things interesting for you.

Best of luck

Graham

[guthrie]

What I do want to do is take a wider view of reenactment and consider what else is out there to do. I am not a skilled craftsman, although it seems every other reenactor I've met is either a craftsperson or talented musician or both. I have given some things a try - basic beeswax candle making went horribly wrong. And the less said about me attempting music the better.

What about the education side? As in specifically focussing on the education value of what's around me. Does mean I have to dig into the detail of the period more, but the best way to learn about a subject is to teach it. No, I'm not a teacher IRL, I'm an accountant. But no-one wants to see C15th bookkeeping techniques.

Yes, a wider view is a good thing. One of the reasons I do bronze casting or alchemy or a bit of pewter casting is because I could see they were niches that nobody had filled, and it also expanded the range of late medieval activities which the public could learn about, having previously been in ignorance.
The 16th century bookkeeping I did was not using double entry, although I suppose that had reached England by that time, but rather the sort of accounts you see in actual historical records. I.e. who owes you money, what you paid out etc. This sort of thing works best if you are attached to a household, then you just need to make up the household accounts. Which if you are trying to make a good show involves havign someone write with pen and ink on reasonably accurate paper.
Or even better find some original accounts and copy them.
You then look up the topic of an exchequer table and a counting cloth and get some jettons, then spend your time adding and subtracting pounds, shillings and pence. When you get the hang of it is quite easy and yet very clever to your average mop.

The end result is that when you learn the patter and make up a few stories behind things (my lord spends too much on wine/ we need new income this year because we are down 15 whole pounds that's such a lot of money, why you would only earn 7 pounds in a year as a skilled craftsman) you can keep people interested for 10 minutes, which is long enough to have an idea of what such a person as yourself would do in a household and how you did you work. It also lends itself to discussion of prices and wages and income disparity, all rather relevant today as the economy is in a bit of a mess.

[guthrie]

It does sound rather like you would prefer to be taking part in battles though, which as many of us have realised over the years does rather limit what you do/ say outside the battle.
And there's nothing stopping you from joining another group who spend more time in the 100 years war and doing events with both.

Also I know it sounds like we are stereotyping you, but there is a surprising amount of money wrangling involved in moving an army about, you could bone up on that sort of thing and talk to the public about it. What does happen if a thousand armed men don't get paid?

[gregory23b]

"But no-one wants to see C15th bookkeeping techniques."

The expectation of the public is very diverse, ok you may well not get a huge queue of people drooling over your bookkeeping, but you will generate interest from unexpected types. A friend of mine was presenting on medieval and Tudor counting and maths at Hampton Court kitchens as a way of linking food and purchase, aside from the polite enquiry from the punters, he had one gentleman rivetted to the table. Said chap was an accountant (possibly a doctor of bean counting) who had brought his Tudorphilic family to the kitchens, something of no interest to him. He could not praise the presenter highly enough, he would never have dreamed that he could have a long and enjoyable exchange of ideas in such a setting. Family groups often include people who are along for the sake of others.

If you are thinking of doing the books and are sketchy on the writing, drop me a pm and I can let you have a good book list from which to study late medieval hands for writing, there are not that many of us out there who write cursive at events, it's not all calligraphy in real life

[Marcus Woodhouse]

I'd love it as well, and I'd be happy to share what I know of the developments taking place in book keeping in Italy during the 15th century.

[acecat999]

I'd love it as well, and I'd be happy to share what I know of the developments taking place in book keeping in Italy during the 15th century.

it depends what sort of accountant he was - would be interested in seeing a 15th C turf accountant......

[The Other Graham]

OK, maybe I was a bit flippant to say "But no-one wants to see C15th bookkeeping techniques.". It's certainly something I could take a look at. How would you suggest getting started? It's not the easiest of things to google, so I might be using the wrong search terms.

Also I know it sounds like we are stereotyping you, but there is a surprising amount of money wrangling involved in moving an army about, you could bone up on that sort of thing and talk to the public about it.

That's an excellent question: how would the payroll of an army on campaign work? I constantly hear archers were paid more than billmen but I can't recall seeing the source for it.

[guthrie]

Ok, I'm afraid that making it up is a little tricky, but here's some info frommy time at Kentwell:
http://calcinations.livejournal.com/228804.html

The old but still reliable book to start with is:
F.P. Barnard, "The Casting Counter and the Counting Board", Oxford 1917.
It has been reprinted, and so you should find it in a decent library.
I have links to photos of reproduction stuff somewhere, but can't find them.

As for actual accounts of the time I don't know. Good starting places probably include "The great household in late medieval England" by S M Woolgar. There hasn't much accessible stuff been written about medieval accountancy, its all locked up in obscure journals or little pamphlets. I've got plenty of library access and experience (More than average people who aren't academics) and it was very hard to find decent information.

[gregory23b]

The way I saw it was that at the end of the day there is always something boring for punters to watch, for some it is the tedious battles with no clear plan, for others it is the disinterested presentations of the same old stuff, for others it is the lack of anything middle or highbrow.

Whether it is bookkeeping or thread counting or yoghurt weaving, the key thing to bear in mind is it should be of interest to you first and foremost, your enthusiasm will carry people with you.

[The_Kyle]

This thread has given me a new found appreciation for late medieval accountancy .

[Captain Reech]

Excellent idea Kyle, then you can progress to Lion Taming.....
(It's not a proper re-enactment without a reference to Monty Python somewhere!)

[Hellequin]

A chap I do the odd display with is an accountant in the real world, so made a point of learning about period accounting practices and uses it quite frequently - it after all is one of the most normal, necessary and important tasks. Money talks

[IDEEDEE]

I really like the accounting idea... (does that make me sad? ) Money, as the man said,is the sinews of war.. No money, no army... Accounting, buying and selling, payment for (or to avoid) service... It's an essential part of life - and also relates to the social realm (even the non-money economy)... Besides which, for our period there is a background of economic change/economy-lead social change, inflation and changes in wages, international banking, different accounting practices, a nice "exchequer" display, different coins, etc. etc.... So much to play with....

Also, unlike many aspects of what we do, money means something in everyone's daily lives today and INME relative costs for everyday items (and period "top of the range" stuff) always seem to interest people - providing just the kind of "hook" to draw people in (as our groups has found with some of our later period presentations involving -at first glance - potentially dull day-to-day tools; if its something people can relate to they engage in much more of a two-way process; which IMHO results in a nicer and often more satisfying show than just talking at folk about something that is perhaps too far removed from to their own lives. I think it sounds a fascinating project.... If I hadn't failed my maths o level four* times I'd be tempted m'self...(*or was it five....)

[Brian la Zouche]

its probby all been said already but..
i read it as you are interested in the HYW, and not WOTR, the more i have looked into the medieval re-enacting, the more my interest in period changed, my first interest was 11th cent, then as i have accrued more knowledge ( even tho limited ) i have become more interested in the HYW also, i've been and spoken watched quite a few groups over the last two years, all were friendly and helpfull, some where fun and authentic, some just fun, but all were nice guys
i guess the reason the WOTR groups so plentifull in the uk as they are fighting on or near actual battlefields of the period, i have i have been quite tempted to join some of these groups, because as said before they were approachable and friendly, BUt its just not the period of interest for me, so i didnt waste my time or theirs in joining only to look elsewhere

i was in the process of joing the MSS to, however now i am starting to think if its WOTR biased. if i too would end up looking else where,

for myself i will wait untill i find a group who covers my period , however i do not expect that the battles will be on the scale of the WOTR ones i've seen, which to me tells me the chance of finding a local group that covers the HYW will also be slim,

BUT on the issue of what to do ''off'' the battlefield i dont see any problem for myself as i only wish to portray an archer im happy chopping fire wood, fetching water, cleaning etc there so many things to do around camp, even finding someone of rank and portraying part of their household ( for want of a better word ) and following them around ie bodyguard

i wonder is it the lack of knowledge you have of your groups period , or the fact deep down you are covering a period you are not really interested in ?

just out of interest im going to post to see what HYW groups there are about